angel and darla's baby
POSTED BY: est120
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 11:05
VIEWED: 7764
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Quote:My apologies - I didn't realize that this was going to be a spoiler-heavy thread.
Originally posted by Grounded:
I've seen every episode so you're not going to spoil me - but I fail to see what you mean. I was trying to say that I think it was a bad decision to make Connor some kind of super-kid. It certainly wasn't necessary for the plot.
I'm referring to the fact that Conner had to be able to defeat Sahjhan - as he does in "Origin" (ep 5.18). Sahjhan supposedly manipulated the prophecy that said Conner would kill him. Well, if the prophecy is supposed to happen (and what good would it be if it didn't), then Conner would have to be able to kill him.
Personally, I think that they gave him powers for a very good reason: he needed to be able to stand toe-to-toe with Angel, as both a companion and as an adversary. If he couldn't, the wonder of them fighting on the same side would have been lost, and the idea of Angel not being able to control him would have, also.
It also seemed to be a metaphor, though: the idea of a youth struggling with the fact that he is different from everyone else.
That's just my opinion, though.
Rabit
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Here it is, with spoilers:
Select to view spoiler:
This is all explained by Jasmine in one of the latter Season 4 episodes - I believe "Inside Out". She says that Connor was the reward of new life from season 2's "The Trial", when Angel tries to save Darla's life. She also explains that she made Connor's birth possible, as she needed "an impossible birth" to allow her own birth to happen. This is how a baby born to 2 vampires was possible - a divine intervention of sorts.
"I like smackin' 'em!" - Jayne Cobb
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rabit:
I'm referring to the fact that Conner had to be able to defeat Sahjhan - as he does in "Origin" (ep 5.18). Sahjhan supposedly manipulated the prophecy that said Conner would kill him. Well, if the prophecy is supposed to happen (and what good would it be if it didn't), then Conner would have to be able to kill him.
It wouldn't take my creativity to come up with a way for him to win without powers.
Quote:
Originally posted by Rabit:
It also seemed to be a metaphor, though: the idea of a youth struggling with the fact that he is different from everyone else.
He's different enough without powers - he's the son of two vampires who spent his entire childhood in a hell dimension. If only they'd focused on the fact that LA was totally alien to Connor a bit more I think the stories would have been a hell of a lot better. Instead they throw continuity out the window and make him a whiny, horny super-powered teenager and totally ignore the fact that he was raised by Holtz - a devoutly religious (and, hello, English!) man.
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Quote:
Originally posted by spikeandjezebel:
Here it is, with spoilers:Select to view spoiler:
This is all explained by Jasmine in one of the latter Season 4 episodes - I believe "Inside Out". She says that Connor was the reward of new life from season 2's "The Trial", when Angel tries to save Darla's life. She also explains that she made Connor's birth possible, as she needed "an impossible birth" to allow her own birth to happen. This is how a baby born to 2 vampires was possible - a divine intervention of sorts.
"I like smackin' 'em!" - Jayne Cobb
i think you just laid the whole issue to rest with this one. thanks for clearing it up!
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Oh, don't get me wrong, GROUNDED; I'm not defending what the writers did. I'm just explaining my perceptions of the reasons for it. I agree that this could have been handled in a much more interesting fashion. However, I don't think that they just gave Conner powers because they thought it would be "cool". I think that there were reasons for it, even if we don't agree that those reasons make sense or are worthwhile.
Rabit
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Fair enough. I just think they have a tendency to make characters ridiculously powerful for no great reason. Count the 'invincible' characters they've had on both shows: The Mayor, Adam, Glory, Connor, The Beast, Jasmine, Caleb, Hamilton. Most of these are in the later years - it just felt like they couldn't come up with anything to make characters really interesting besides invulnerability. Look at villains like Holtz and Angel/Spike/Drusilla - they weren't invincible and yet the stories, and the drama, seemed so much more compelling. Practically all of Buffy's S7 was spent saying 'oh my god this is the worst evil we've ever faced' while nothing particularly bad was actually happening.
Hmm. I seemed to have sidetracked into a rant ;)
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Quote:I'd imagine that sums up the experience of every parent who's ever existed anywhere.
Originally posted by Zeek:
Here's your reward, a kid who doesn't like you and will act maliciously toward you
-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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Quote:
Originally posted by spikeandjezebel:
Here it is, with spoilers:Select to view spoiler:
This is all explained by Jasmine in one of the latter Season 4 episodes - I believe "Inside Out". She says that Connor was the reward of new life from season 2's "The Trial", when Angel tries to save Darla's life. She also explains that she made Connor's birth possible, as she needed "an impossible birth" to allow her own birth to happen. This is how a baby born to 2 vampires was possible - a divine intervention of sorts.
Okay, this was driving me crazy since I couldn't remember, so I looked it up. The question of Connor's birth is sorta mentioned in the ep above, but the full explanation is:
Select to view spoiler:
In "Inside Out" it's Skip that gives us the run-down about how Jasmine (who at this point in the show doesn't have a name yet) manipulated events to have her brought forth. Skip says that everything that has happened, from Gunn's sister, to Fred's time in Pylea, to Wesley's thing with Lilah, to Cordy's getting the visions in the first place, was manipulated by Jasmine.
Then, in "Shiny Happy People" after Jasmine has been born and the crew are under her thrall, she tells them her history, and that she was one of the original powers on the Earth, until it was corrupted by demons. Jasmine waited for man to fix the mess, but when he didn't she decided to return by arranging a miracle, i.e. Connor's birth, and that Angel won Connor's life from "The Trial" in Season 2.
And I'm sorry, but it makes me head hurt to even try to understand and fit all the puzzle pieces together to have had this come about. Ugh.
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"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."
-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:Quote:I'd imagine that sums up the experience of every parent who's ever existed anywhere.
Originally posted by Zeek:
Here's your reward, a kid who doesn't like you and will act maliciously toward you
-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
Yeah but for them it's a consquence. You got your freak on now you're stuck with a kid. Not you were willing to sacrifice yourself for someone else and went through a lot of pain here's a crummy reward.
Oh and I agree the whole everything ever was jasmine's doing doesn't quite work out for me either. Best I guess we can do is say Jasmine and Skip were evil, so it's possible both were just lying.
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Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
And I'm sorry, but it makes me head hurt to even try to understand and fit all the puzzle pieces together to have had this come about. Ugh.
It's just one big flimsy retcon. Jasmine 'manipulated' events - how vague can you get?
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