What are America's interests?
POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 2, 2026 17:48
VIEWED: 19030
PAGE 8 of 16
And so, here we are ...
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
CC, I wanted to reply to the RELEVANT part of your post in the other thread:
Quote:
I also note for the record that Consumers are rarely, A) mentioned as being an involved party, or B) held responsible for their actions in the Kiki/Signym anti-corporate, anti-bank, anti-younameit fantasy world they talk about.- CC
The driver of ALL production is consumption, either present or future.
You want to save the whales (and other animals) restore wetlands, halt global warming? It's to ensure future renewables which are for consumption.
You want to invest in a new widget-making factory? For consumption.
You want to make the economic system more robust? Revitalize infrastructure? It's to stabilize FUTURE production against catastrophe, production which is for consumption.
Except for a small level of blue-sky research which may (or may not) have an impact on production and a few other categories of activities which I can't think of at the moment but are probably "out there", human labor is almost ALWAYS geared towards consumption of one sort or another. It goes without saying
What I'm trying to do is balance production with consumption which requires that the rewards of production flow to the producers, and to put consumption on a sustainable path that can continue for the foreseeable future AND be resistant to natural catastrophe or man made disruption (war, financial collapse). What this will mean is that MANY marginally employed/ unemployed will have meaningful jobs, that everybody will experience economic security, and that SOME people (the infinitesimally small elite) will experience a vast reduction in circumstance and power.
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Polishing a turd.
The best part of today's summary.
Now that Trump has given America free reign to pollute, has America been able to catch up to China, or is China still the World's Greatest Polluter?
Has the Middle East Region been able to maintain title of Worst Air Polluter?
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:so, in the mode of "I told you so", ROBUST production without long, complicated and fragile supply chains, are in America's interests. COVID19 and our reliance on foreign manufacturing (Say, did you know that the USA does not make a speck of penicillin internally?) proves that.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
CC, I wanted to reply to the RELEVANT part of your post in the other thread:Quote:
I also note for the record that Consumers are rarely, A) mentioned as being an involved party, or B) held responsible for their actions in the Kiki/Signym anti-corporate, anti-bank, anti-younameit fantasy world they talk about.- CC
The driver of ALL production is consumption, either present or future.
You want to save the whales (and other animals) restore wetlands, halt global warming? It's to ensure future renewables which are for consumption.
You want to invest in a new widget-making factory? For consumption.
You want to make the economic system more robust? Revitalize infrastructure? It's to stabilize FUTURE production against catastrophe, production which is for consumption.
Except for a small level of blue-sky research which may (or may not) have an impact on production and a few other categories of activities which I can't think of at the moment but are probably "out there", human labor is almost ALWAYS geared towards consumption of one sort or another. It goes without saying
What I'm trying to do is balance production with consumption which requires that the rewards of production flow to the producers, and to put consumption on a sustainable path that can continue for the foreseeable future AND be resistant to natural catastrophe or man made disruption (war, financial collapse). What this will mean is that MANY marginally employed/ unemployed will have meaningful jobs, that everybody will experience economic security, and that SOME people (the infinitesimally small elite) will experience a vast reduction in circumstance and power.
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
Happy New Year, WISHY. I edited out your psychopathic screed!
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Carried over from http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=63473&p=31#1100
234
Quote:
SIGNYM: But I think I've made that point plenty of times. It's like asking "What are America's (or Americans') interests?" Since nobody even recognizes the category of "America" and "American" as meaningful (except to whip up hysteria about some perceived enemy) and nobody recognizes kinship with other Americans, I guess America is truly dead. Anyway, back on-topic.
SECOND: If "America is truly dead", then it has always been dead. Before the Civil War, slaves were 30% of the population in some states, 40% in others. As high as 57% in South Carolina. Ask yourself why the government let this happen to those people. Once you have imagined why it happened, then you will understand why in today's America 30%, 40%, and even more Americans live in despair and why today's equivalent of the Underground Railroad is run by charity, not by government. (I will give you a hint if your imagination fails: it is not in the interests of most Americans that all Americans live a good life; the class which I call "most" will vote accordingly.)
https://faculty.weber.edu/kmackay/statistics_on_slavery.htm
If comparing desperate Americans today with slaves seems too extreme, ask yourself why the Federal government let Reconstruction collapse after the Civil War. Still too extreme? Ask about the extreme hostility toward LBJ's War on Poverty. Still too extreme? Then ask why there is hostility to raising the Federal Minimum Wage and expanding Medicaid.
www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/politics/poverty/lemunf1.htm
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
#WEARAMASK
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:It's because it's always proposed as a zero-sum system for the people who work for a living. Those people's benefits can only come at MY expense.
SECOND: If "America is truly dead", then it has always been dead. Before the Civil War, slaves were 30% of the population in some states, 40% in others. As high as 57% in South Carolina. Ask yourself why the government let this happen to those people. Once you have imagined why it happened, then you will understand why in today's America 30%, 40%, and even more Americans live in despair and why today's equivalent of the Underground Railroad is run by charity, not by government. (I will give you a hint if your imagination fails: it is not in the interests of most Americans that all Americans live a good life; the class which I call "most" will vote accordingly.)
https://faculty.weber.edu/kmackay/statistics_on_slavery.htm
If comparing desperate Americans today with slaves seems too extreme, ask yourself why the Federal government let Reconstruction collapse after the Civil War. Still too extreme? Ask about the extreme hostility toward LBJ's War on Poverty. Still too extreme? Then ask why there is hostility to raising the Federal Minimum Wage and expanding Medicaid.
www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/politics/poverty/lemunf1.htm
If you create a system where everybody who can and is willing to work has the ability to create a good life for themselves by working - and without invoking bias to give one group more-better than another group - then my benefit is my benefit, and your benefit is your benefit, and the one has nothing to do with the other.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Carried over from http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=63473&p=31#1100
234
Quote:
SIGNYM: But I think I've made that point plenty of times. It's like asking "What are America's (or Americans') interests?" Since nobody even recognizes the category of "America" and "American" as meaningful (except to whip up hysteria about some perceived enemy) and nobody recognizes kinship with other Americans, I guess America is truly dead. Anyway, back on-topic.
SECOND: If "America is truly dead", then it has always been dead. Before the Civil War, slaves were 30% of the population in some states, 40% in others. As high as 57% in South Carolina. Ask yourself why the government let this happen to those people. Once you have imagined why it happened, then you will understand why in today's America 30%, 40%, and even more Americans live in despair
There was one historic reason why slavery was allowed in the USA: the Founding Fathers simply could not get the slave-owning colonies to fight against the British unless wealthy slave-owners got to continue their way of life (profit).
That there was slavery in the USA isn't an indictment of all, or even most, Americans at the time. Many northerners were against slavery either actively (Abolitionists) or tacitly and, in the end, many northerners fought and died in the Civil War which freed the slaves.
When people bring up slavery as some sort of indictment of today's Americans, I just kind of chuckle. "My people" didn't come to the USA until 1920 (at the earliest), so what did they have to do with slavery? And if blacks deserve some sort of reparations for wrongs done generations ago and we were to do a deep dive into historical records and find the descendants of slave-owning families and assign blame ... what about the descendants of northerners whose sons died in the Civil War? Do they deserve brownie points by this same post-fact assignment of blame or reward?
Anyway, please come up with a more cogent and recent explanation than some generalized guilt-tripping about something that the people of today had no involvement with.
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
#WEARAMASK
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
In any case, I honsetly think Americans can agree on just about everything of importance: A safe place to sleep, nutritious food to eat and clean water to drink, a way to earn our place in society, support in illness and disability, environmental remediation, infrastrucural repair, and agency over our individual and collective futures.
The question isn't "what", but "how". HOW do we achieve a future that we probably mostly agree on? That seems to be the sticky wicket!
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
#WEARAMASK
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I have a very general rejection of what I call religious hokum. It's when people use phrases like 'the market', or 'market forces' as if they were an answer.
If you can't tell me EXACTLY how it's supposed to work, step by step, in logical and concrete detail, where inevitable effect follows specific cause, then it's religious hokum.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
In any case, I honsetly think Americans can agree on just about everything of importance: A safe place to sleep, nutritious food to eat and clean water to drink, a way to earn our place in society, support in illness and disability, environmental remediation, infrastrucural repair, and agency over our individual and collective futures.
The question isn't "what", but "how". HOW do we achieve a future that we probably mostly agree on? That seems to be the sticky wicket!
Unless you can somehow lobotomize every human being you're never going to get it.
Because we don't agree on it. Everybody has their own opinions, ideas, perceptions and motives. And most people aren't genuine about any of that, even with themselves.
Most people that don't have it want it, but when they got it they still wouldn't be satisfied and would always want more. Most people that have all of that don't really want everyone else to have that because it diminishes how "special" they are. They are just virtue signalling for clout or to ease their own guilt for having what others don't have. But they don't really want others to have it too.
Do Right, Be Right. :)
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME