Real World Event Discussions
A thread for Democrats Only
POSTED BY: THGRRI
UPDATED: Sunday, September 6, 2026 15:36
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Tuesday, May 1, 2018 7:29 AM
Quote:I just realized that some posters here were not born when that showy Berlin Wall existed. Just for show.
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:Quote:That's a lot of waste of money on something that is just there for show, even if it is one time. It won't actually keep anybody out if there's no reason other than a stupid wall that is for show blocking them.
Originally posted by second:Quote:Always worried about the cost and never worry about results. That will guarantee failure.
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:Quote:Deportation is just as stupid and a waste of money as building a wall is.
Originally posted by second:
ICE conducted 226,119 removals. If there are 12 million illegals divided by 226,119, it will take 53 years to remove most of the illegals. I would say Trump is not really trying very hard. I do not think he is serious. Except it is worse than 53 years to remove all the illegals because most of the 226,119 that get deported have only been in the US for a few months. Trump is not making much of a dent in the long-term illegals. It might take 100 years for Trump to deport 12 million illegals at the rate he is working. I think Trump is doing more bullshitting than deporting. The guy is Fake News.
If somebody were serious about keeping illegals out they would make it impossible for them to make any money here and send it home through tax laws and absolutely destroying any companies found hiring them under the table.
Couple that with immediately cutting illegals, even those born here by illegal parents, from any government benefits and they will go back home on their own dime, with no cost to the American taxpayer.
The cost of the Texas/Mexico wall is $25 billion. And that is not every year. It is one time cost.
The cost to remove 12 million illegal aliens at $2,000 each is $24 billion.
The total is $49 billion. That is a small price to get Republicans to finally shut up.
It is smaller than Trump’s increase in Pentagon spending by $74 billion to a new world record defense budget of $716 billion for fiscal 2019.
The $74 billion defense increase is EVERY STINKING YEAR while the $49 billion is one time only.
The $74 billion defense increase will not have anything you can point to and say “this is what my money bought” while the $49 billion will buy you a thousand mile long wall and 12 million new jobs for legal citizens and there will be 12 million empty apartments and houses where the illegals had once lived. There will be cheaper rent for everybody still living in the USA.
And don't forget all those new American jobs openings the illegals graciously left behind for people like 6ixStringJack.
www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-trump-defense-20180212-story.html
Take away any and all incentives for somebody to even want to be here illegally and they simply won't come, even if you had no wall and a 3,000 mile long red carpet rolled out along the border.
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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Tuesday, May 1, 2018 7:52 AM
Quote:Do you have a link? I looked over a few pages for the word 'report' but didn't find anything.
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
The report from the Food Stamp program uses the figures 1% and 14.4%.
I am not aware of a better suited authority. Who might provide more accurate data?
So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?
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Tuesday, May 1, 2018 8:05 AM
Quote:Do you have a link? I looked over a few pages for the word 'report' but didn't find anything.
Originally posted by 1kiki:Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
The report from the Food Stamp program uses the figures 1% and 14.4%.
I am not aware of a better suited authority. Who might provide more accurate data?
So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?
I will look again, but with dread.
The last time you had a similar ask was with Holder's report to Congress. I had read it so many times it started putting me to sleep each time. It should have been easy to find again, but I haven't.
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Tuesday, May 1, 2018 8:23 AM
Sadly, that's always been true of search engines. They tend to bubble up the most relevant answers of the moment. But when the moment passes, so too do the answers. Whether you find it or not, I do appreciate the look-see.
So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?
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Tuesday, May 1, 2018 8:45 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
I just realized that some posters here were not born when that showy Berlin Wall existed. Just for show.
I'm assuming this was sarcasm.
I was in grade school when the Berlin Wall was torn down.
Big difference between the Berlin wall and some joke wall beteween us and Mexico there, friend.
We're not going to have a bunch of armed guards on either side shooting anybody trying to get across it. Maybe in your Conservitard wet dreams that would happen, but it NEVER would.
The wall would be strictly for show, and would be completely meaningless without mass deportations immediately following it, and hard core enforced laws making it impossible for anybody without a social security number to work or to get any benefits immediately afterward. Something else that is not going to happen.
The wall is a fucking joke.
I can only imagine somebody like drunk idiot me from 2016 thinking it was a good idea. I spent about 10 hours per week back then not drunk out of my skull or sleeping it off.
What's you're excuse now?
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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Tuesday, May 1, 2018 12:52 PM
Quote:From what I recall, that particular item was from around 2013. But the plethora of controversial Holder appearances before Congress blots out the desired result. I can't even find a list of his appearances. I should try Congressional Quarterly.
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Sadly, that's always been true of search engines. They tend to bubble up the most relevant answers of the moment. But when the moment passes, so too do the answers. Whether you find it or not, I do appreciate the look-see.
So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?
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Tuesday, May 1, 2018 5:21 PM
Quote:What is the cost to prove that the wall is a joke and, take note of the "and", that deporting all 12 million illegal aliens would NOT be a benefit for the USA? It would cost $150.
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
I just realized that some posters here were not born when that showy Berlin Wall existed. Just for show.
I'm assuming this was sarcasm.
I was in grade school when the Berlin Wall was torn down.
Big difference between the Berlin wall and some joke wall beteween us and Mexico there, friend.
We're not going to have a bunch of armed guards on either side shooting anybody trying to get across it. Maybe in your Conservitard wet dreams that would happen, but it NEVER would.
The wall would be strictly for show, and would be completely meaningless without mass deportations immediately following it, and hard core enforced laws making it impossible for anybody without a social security number to work or to get any benefits immediately afterward. Something else that is not going to happen.
The wall is a fucking joke.
I can only imagine somebody like drunk idiot me from 2016 thinking it was a good idea. I spent about 10 hours per week back then not drunk out of my skull or sleeping it off.
What's you're excuse now?
Do Right, Be Right. :)
Divide the total cost by the total population:
$49,000,000,000 / 327,636,000 = $149.56
It is an experiment that is well worth running to prove a point. The USA has run similar expensive experiments in the past, spending trillions of dollars on H-bombs that cannot be used. That is trillions on wars that cannot be won, if you want to be technical. The USA is no safer than countries that have spent far less. Even countries that spent nothing on H-bombs are just as safe.
I say that Trump should deport the illegals and build the wall. Then we would have tangible proof that it either does or does not make the USA better. It is the same kind of proof the USA got from building H-bombs. And at least we will be able to see the Texas/Mexico wall and see all the empty apartments where illegals had once lived and see what our $150 per citizen was spent upon. When did you last see proof that all the $trillions were spent "usefully" on H-bombs? It has been decades since the last mushroom cloud. For all we know, the actual mightiness of the USA's nuclear arsenal is smaller than that of France's arsenal, but the USA's cost is a thousand times larger. The USA's nuclear arsenal costs more every year than the one time cost for deporting all illegals plus the price for the Texas/Mexico wall.
www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-nuclear-arsenal/u-s-nuclear-arsenal-to-
cost-1-2-trillion-over-next-30-years-cbo-idUSKBN1D030E
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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Tuesday, May 1, 2018 8:11 PM
When "immigrants' rights" activists get all hysterical about the wall, saying that it "won't work" and will make absolutely "no difference" to illegal immigration, two questions immediately come to mind:
1) If physical barriers make no difference at all, how about if we build bridges across the border? Just lots and lots of bridges and roads making illegal immigration easier? Would they advocate for that? If they would, then that undercuts their argument about walls.
2) If it "won't work", why get so upset about it in the first place? Why fight something so hard that's irrelevant in the first place? And if they're so patriotically concerned about "waste", why not focus on things that are a lot more wasteful, like the F-35 or our endless wars in the .... well, everywhere?
People are so illogical.
Quote:I agree.
I say that Trump should deport the illegals and build the wall. Then we would have tangible proof that it either does or does not make the USA better. It is the same kind of proof the USA got from building H-bombs. And at least we will be able to see the Texas/Mexico wall and see all the empty apartments where illegals had once lived and see what our $150 per citizen was spent upon.
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876
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Tuesday, May 1, 2018 9:28 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by second:
It is an experiment that is well worth running to prove a point. The USA has run similar expensive experiments in the past, spending trillions of dollars on H-bombs that cannot be used. That is trillions on wars that cannot be won, if you want to be technical.
Our nuclear arsenal needed to be created since Russia would be the only government with one at the time if we hadn't done it. I imagine the world would be a much different place in that alternate universe, and the globes there would be unrecognizable to us here.
There's a difference between passively and actively making use of something. To say that the money spent on the arsenal was a complete waste is overlooking the potential passive power those nukes represented. This wasn't money spent on wars that could be won. It was money spent in hopes of ensuring these wars never begin in the first place.
Granted, things get a little fuzzy when you throw brainwashed ideologues with no sense of self preservation into the mix.
Quote:
The USA is no safer than countries that have spent far less. Even countries that spent nothing on H-bombs are just as safe.
This is true, kind of. Having at least two super powers with these arsenals pretty much ensures that they won't ever actually be used for fear of mutually ensured destruction.
It stands to reason that there are going to be a lot of small countries and third world shitholes that benefit from this without having had to invest in the tech.
Quote:
I say that Trump should deport the illegals and build the wall. Then we would have tangible proof that it either does or does not make the USA better. It is the same kind of proof the USA got from building H-bombs. And at least we will be able to see the Texas/Mexico wall and see all the empty apartments where illegals had once lived and see what our $150 per citizen was spent upon. When did you last see proof that all the $trillions were spent "usefully" on H-bombs? It has been decades since the last mushroom cloud. For all we know, the actual mightiness of the USA's nuclear arsenal is smaller than that of France's arsenal, but the USA's cost is a thousand times larger. The USA's nuclear arsenal costs more every year than the one time cost for deporting all illegals plus the price for the Texas/Mexico wall.
The fact that it has been decades since the last mushroom cloud, coupled with the fact that we're not all saying the Russian Pledge of Allegiance every morning in school is proof enough that the money was well spent.
What you're suggesting here is just throwing massive amounts of money away on something that won't work, and I suspect by your attitude about it that you believe it will fail as much as I do and you want a Republican President to be the one to waste all of that money that could be much better spent fixing our infrastructure or stimulating our economy in some other meaningful way.
Because of the tech available to us today, there is no reason for a physical barrier. Tweak a few existing laws and enforce the laws we already have today and the issue becomes moot.
This is strictly an ROI issue. Nobody is going to want to come here illegally if we don't give them any beneficial reasons to do so.
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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Tuesday, May 1, 2018 10:01 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
When "immigrants' rights" activists get all hysterical about the wall, saying that it "won't work" and will make absolutely "no difference" to illegal immigration, two questions immediately come to mind:
I don't believe that you think I'm an Immigrants Rights Activist, but I do believe that the wall will be a complete waste of money. You can't compare it to the Berlin Wall like JSF tried to do simply because we're not going to have armed soldiers on either side actively shooting anybody who comes close to it.
Quote:
1) If physical barriers make no difference at all, how about if we build bridges across the border? Just lots and lots of bridges and roads making illegal immigration easier? Would they advocate for that? If they would, then that undercuts their argument about walls.
As I said in the other posts, use the legal means we already largely have at our disposal and use against our own citizens to ensure that illegals can make no benefit by crossing the border. No government assistance, healthcare or education for anyone without a Social Security number for starters. Give advance notice of a year that it will be done, and then actively destroy any companies that are caught paying illegals under the table. Make a few examples out of them and nobody is going to dare hire any illegal help again.
With no government benefits or aid to collect, and no prospects of finding any paying work, you could build a yellow brick road connecting every major Mexican city to every major American city with a billboard saying "Welcome to America" every mile and nobody would come here.
Quote:
2) If it "won't work", why get so upset about it in the first place? Why fight something so hard that's irrelevant in the first place? And if they're so patriotically concerned about "waste", why not focus on things that are a lot more wasteful, like the F-35 or our endless wars in the .... well, everywhere?
I'm not fighting it. At this point, who really gives a shit. Government is as Government does. They're going to do whatever the hell they want to do and nobody is going to ask me what my opinion is about it first.
True... The wars are a problem. But they've been a problem for half of my life now, and there doesn't seem to be any Administration that is going to curb them. GOP started them. Democrats maintained and expanded them. The Wildcard Nationalist currently in the seat doesn't seem interested in stopping them anymore now that he's elected.
I don't think that means we need to just go and waste a bunch more money on something that isn't actually going to be beneficial to anybody, just because.
Quote:
People are so illogical.
I agree.
Quote:
I say that Trump should deport the illegals and build the wall. Then we would have tangible proof that it either does or does not make the USA better. It is the same kind of proof the USA got from building H-bombs. And at least we will be able to see the Texas/Mexico wall and see all the empty apartments where illegals had once lived and see what our $150 per citizen was spent upon.
Quote:
I agree.
I disagree.
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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