Real World Event Discussions

North Korea

POSTED BY: THGRRI
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 25, 2026 23:22
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6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, March 11, 2018 9:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF SUCH SACRIFICE?

I think it's time YOU asked yourself the questions, SECOND: What are America's important interests, and how can we best achieve them?

Let's start with American existential interests- i.e. those interests which, if not achieved, will allow the destruction of American - and work outwards from there.
America does not have a purpose. It does not have an interest. It is a third of a billion people pulling in all directions. Unsurprisingly, not much gets accomplished. It is 50 states governors doing what they can. Why would you think it could have a single purpose? America isn't purposeful like an ant colony with a queen. It is more like 50 ant colonies of all different and competing species, or 3,000 at the county level, or 20,000 ant colonies at the city and town level. It will be conflict after conflict. There will not be "A Purpose" for a country organized like that.

You can see that more clearly by comparing the decision making of an American Congress plus the President to decision making by the Kim Dynasty. When a Kim gives an order, people either obey or they die. A government with a Kim at the top will have a purpose. It is whatever the Kim wants, the Kim gets. There are stories about different Kims at different times over the decades having their political enemies murdered. When was the last time a President murdered a Bureaucrat, a General, or a member of his family? When was the last time a President started a famine that kills a million Americans? It has been longer than the last time a Kim did those things. A Kim has "A Purpose". A Congress or a Trump don't. All America has hundreds of millions of conflicting interests.

Would a Kim say the following? “Who knows what’s going to happen?” said Trump, who added that if the meeting takes place, “I may leave fast or we may sit down and make the greatest deal for the world.” Kim will have a clear purpose when he goes into a meeting with Trump. Trump won't. It will be all hot Trump air. Anything he promises or agrees to will have to be ratified by Congress, which will argue for months then come to a compromise or not. Who knows with those purposeless people with their conflicting interests? If Kim makes a decision in that meeting with Trump, nobody in North Korea will tell him to modify it.

www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles/trump-says-north-korea-
talks-could-fail-or-bring-greatest-deal-idUSKCN1GM0TU

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Sound's more and more like Second is the Communist I've suspected he is.

A fan of the Borg, are ya?

Do Right, Be Right. :)

SIGNYM

Sunday, March 11, 2018 11:00 PM

Quote:
WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF SUCH SACRIFICE?
I think it's time YOU asked yourself the questions, SECOND: What are America's important interests, and how can we best achieve them?

Let's start with American existential interests- i.e. those interests which, if not achieved, will allow the destruction of America (ed) - and work outwards from there. - SIGNY

America does not have a purpose. - SECOND

That wasn't my question. There is a difference between "purpose" and "interest"

Quote:
It does not have an interest. It is a third of a billion people pulling in all directions.- SECOND

Hmm... but MOST of them are pulling in the direction of at least trying to stay alive, so it's not as random as you portray.

Quote:
Unsurprisingly, not much gets accomplished. - SECOND

A lot of work is being done. Things are made, people are healed, children are educated (or at least warehoused); yes, much of our work is trivial but still, a lot of people manage to keep body and soul together, take care of their families, and join their communities. I guess you don't think the physical survival of so many people is much of an accomplishment? Wow, you really must hate Americans!

Quote:
It is 50 states governors doing what they can. Why would you think it could have a single purpose? America isn't purposeful like an ant colony with a queen. It is more like 50 ant colonies of all different and competing species, or 3,000 at the county level, or 20,000 ant colonies at the city and town level. It will be conflict after conflict. There will not be "A Purpose" for a country organized like that.- SECOND

But that's not my question. My question is ... what are Americans' INTERESTS? Plus, who said it had to be only one? Certainly not me! I've explicitly said that there are more than one.

So, what is coming thru sounds to me like you despise Americans for being random, "purposeless" creatures who will sacrifice nothing for a larger, unified purpose. Am I correct? Or is this a total misread of your emotion?

Quote:
You can see that more clearly by comparing the decision making of an American Congress plus the President to decision making by the Kim Dynasty. When a Kim gives an order, people either obey or they die. A government with a Kim at the top will have a purpose. It is whatever the Kim wants, the Kim gets. There are stories about different Kims at different times over the decades having their political enemies murdered. When was the last time a President murdered a Bureaucrat, a General, or a member of his family?- SECOND

Seth Rich maybe?

Quote:
When was the last time a President started a famine that kills a million Americans? - SECOND

First of all, the famine was because of OUR sanctions, not because of Kim. So is starving a million people a good thing?

Hmm... that last time an American President starved a million people?? Well... HW Bush pushed for - and got- sanctions on Iraq which starved a million people, half a million of which were children, and Madeline Albright said it was "worth it". Was that done without purpose?

Quote:
It has been longer than the last time a Kim did those things.- SECOND

False premise.

Quote:
... All America has hundreds of millions of conflicting interests.- SECOND

Not true. Most of us have the SAME interests.

Quote:
Would a Kim say the following? “Who knows what’s going to happen?” said Trump, who added that if the meeting takes place, “I may leave fast or we may sit down and make the greatest deal for the world.” Kim will have a clear purpose when he goes into a meeting with Trump. Trump won't. It will be all hot Trump air. Anything he promises or agrees to will have to be ratified by Congress, which will argue for months then come to a compromise or not. Who knows with those purposeless people with their conflicting interests? If Kim makes a decision in that meeting with Trump, nobody in North K

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THGRRI

Monday, March 12, 2018 12:42 AM

She just can't do it. Sig blames America instead of North Korea for it's plight. Fuck you comrade troll.

T

SIGNYM

Monday, March 12, 2018 2:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
She just can't do it. Sig blames America instead of North Korea for it's plight. Fuck you comrade troll. - THUGR

Well, my main point was that SECOND sound almost ... jealous ... of NK's unity of purpose, and seems to despise America's individualism.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

6IXSTRINGJACK

Monday, March 12, 2018 2:41 AM

I don't know if jealous is the right word, but there sure did seem to be a lot of admiration for how and why NK does things in Second's post.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

SECOND

Monday, March 12, 2018 4:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I don't know if jealous is the right word, but there sure did seem to be a lot of admiration for how and why NK does things in Second's post.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

Can I repeat a statistic from this page to answer? Very obviously North Korea has a different interest or purpose than South Korea. Maybe 6ix can see it. Maybe not:

North v South Korea (2013)
Country N.Korea S.Korea
Population 24,720,407 48,955,203
GDP - per capita (PPP), $1,800 $32,400

www.theguardian.com/world/datablog/2013/apr/08/south-korea-v-north-kor
ea-compared

North Korea's purpose is to keep the Kim Dynasty in control. At the other extreme, South Korea is very much like America and has millions of purposes, many of them in conflict, most involving money. An abundance of purpose and turmoil. Funny how North Korea has never had turmoil over money.

South Koreans have one purpose that overrides all the others: keep North Korea out of the South. That is definitely a life and death interest for South Koreans, but I am not sure for Trump. Sadly for South Koreans, now that Trump is President and can't focus his brain for more than two minutes before changing the subject, South Koreans still depend on America to provide the nukes to offset North Korea's army and nukes. South Koreans do not want Trump to nuke the North because Northerners are family. They want Trump to keep the Northerners on their side of the border and they don't know if Trump has the brains to do that without killing millions of South Koreans. It is such a problem when the Policeman of the World has gotten so stupid that he (now that Trump replaced retired policeman Obama) might kill you when you call the policeman for help to stop a burglary of your home.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Monday, March 12, 2018 6:21 PM

I wonder what all the innocent brown people who were accidentally killed by Policeman Obama's drone strikes would have to say about him.

Obviously North and South Korea have different interests, and of course South Korea mirrors the US quite a bit since they are a Democratic society. It gets a little strange when talking about the economy of SK though. Their economic system is Capitalist, their social structure is Socialist and their mindsets are Communist.

You seem to love the idea of a country that has one common goal and purpose and a hive like mentality. Are you a Communist, or are you suggesting that America would be much better off if we were to suffer a large threat and use that to band together?

I don't find either idea appealing. We already lived through the second one after 9/11 during GWB's administration and nothing good at all came out of that.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

SECOND

Monday, March 12, 2018 9:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I wonder what all the innocent brown people who were accidentally killed by Policeman Obama's drone strikes would have to say about him.

Obama did not kill them "accidentally". The Pentagon killed them with their “Ever step on ants and never give it another thought?” In a secluded room at an airbase in Nevada, young men who don’t give a shit hold the power of life and death over people thousands of miles away. Can you blame Obama for a stupid punk of a Republican at a drone’s computer screen not giving a shit? The airmen would be flying the Predators over a village in the tribal areas of Pakistan, say, when a series of smaller black shadows would appear across their screens – telling them that kids were at the scene. They called them “fun-sized terrorists”. The people who would vote for Trump, with all the "reasons" I've heard and read them give, are not reasonable people to trust with life or death decisions.
www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/18/life-as-a-drone-pilot-creech-air
-force-base-nevada

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Obviously North and South Korea have different interests, and of course South Korea mirrors the US quite a bit since they are a Democratic society. It gets a little strange when talking about the economy of SK though. Their economic system is Capitalist, their social structure is Socialist and their mindsets are Communist.

You seem to love the idea of a country that has one common goal and purpose and a hive like mentality. Are you a Communist, or are you suggesting that America would be much better off if we were to suffer a large threat and use that to band together?

I don't find either idea appealing. We already lived through the second one after 9/11 during GWB's administration and nothing good at all came out of that.

You caught me in the mood to answer. I lived in El Lago for years. The Lyndon B Johnson Space Center, named for the President, is 3 miles away. El Lago had astronauts who have gone to the moon, but now it’s just a glorious memory. www.ellago-tx.com/gallery.aspx?AID=4

Why did the space program become only a jobs program, a way to make money? Because America does not have a purpose or interest other than making money, except this one time about going to the moon. And that was only because of the passing phenomenon of LBJ. The whole purpose of NASA switched to money, not space, once LBJ was out of the White House.

It has been a hobby of mine to think of a way for huge science-fictional space projects to be finished. Projects that will never turn a profit, but cost trillions. This is impossible in America or in Firefly’s Alliance where everything is about profit. America’s Moon project was never completed, for example. America went to the moon, but never did the next step of a moon base. Or all the other next steps. There wasn’t any profit. The Alliance never completed the next step: return to Earth and terraform it to again make it inhabitable for humans. Centuries have passed, but the Alliance never returned to Earth because there wasn’t any profit.

What kind of government would arise to make its purpose resettlement of millions on Earth? The dynamics would be a North Korea vs America relationship between that government and the Alliance. The Alliance would be hostile to any competing government building starships for moving a whole civilization and all that machinery back to Earth.

A comic story covering that government competing with the Alliance, I think, could be a whole series of Firefly comic books, one per month, for at least 100 months. The crew of Serenity would be right in the middle of it. The ending is when Serenity with crew becomes the cargo on a Mars bound starship. It would be a much better story then the one in the existing comics. It would also be a more entertaining story than how North Korea built intercontinental ballistic missiles and H-bombs.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is

6IXSTRINGJACK

Tuesday, March 13, 2018 2:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I wonder what all the innocent brown people who were accidentally killed by Policeman Obama's drone strikes would have to say about him.
Obama did not kill them "accidentally". The Pentagon killed them with their “Ever step on ants and never give it another thought?” In a secluded room at an airbase in Nevada, young men who don’t give a shit hold the power of life and death over people thousands of miles away. Can you blame Obama for a stupid punk of a Republican at a drone’s computer screen not giving a shit? The airmen would be flying the Predators over a village in the tribal areas of Pakistan, say, when a series of smaller black shadows would appear across their screens – telling them that kids were at the scene. They called them “fun-sized terrorists”. The people who would vote for Trump, with all the "reasons" I've heard and read them give, are not reasonable people to trust with life or death decisions.

Okay. I'll play your game.

Why did neither of two things happen here?

1. Obama didn't make this stop, or even bring any attention to it. It seems like the man who got a Nobel Peace Prize would have every reason to speak out against this while it was happening under his watch.

2. The media didn't say a damn thing about it. I've got to hear every conspiracy theorist link to Russia and what Trump's diet is on a daily basis, but while Obama was president these drone strikes happened all the time and didn't get any coverage.

Quote:
You caught me in the mood to answer. I lived in El Lago for years. The Lyndon B Johnson Space Center, named for the President, is 3 miles away. El Lago had astronauts who have gone to the moon, but now it’s just a glorious memory. www.ellago-tx.com/gallery.aspx?AID=4

Why did the space program become only a jobs program, a way to make money? Because America does not have a purpose or interest other than making money, except this one time about going to the moon. And that was only because of the passing phenomenon of LBJ. The whole purpose of NASA switched to money, not space, once LBJ was out of the White House.

It has been a hobby of mine to think of a way for huge science-fictional space projects to be finished. Projects that will never turn a profit, but cost trillions. This is impossible in America or in Firefly’s Alliance where everything is about profit. America’s Moon project was never completed, for example. America went to the moon, but never did the next step of a moon base. Or all the other next steps. There wasn’t any profit. The Alliance never completed the next step: return to Earth and terraform it to again make it inhabitable for humans. Centuries have passed, but the Alliance never returned to Earth because there wasn’t any profit.

What kind of government would arise to make its purpose resettlement of millions on Earth? The dynamics would be a North Korea vs America relationship between that government and the Alliance. The Alliance would be hostile to any competing government building starships for moving a whole civilization and all that machinery back to Earth.

A comic story covering that government competing with the Alliance, I think, could be a whole series of Firefly comic books, one per month, for at least 100 months. The crew of Serenity would be right in the middle of it. The ending is when Serenity with crew becomes the cargo on a Mars bound starship. It would be a much better story then the one in the existing comics. It would also be a more entertaining story than how North Korea built intercontinental ballistic missiles and H-bombs.

So... the question is how to monetize and incentivize space exploration.

The Democrats are extremely good at thinking up and enacting tax schemes to manipulate individual behavior (cigarette taxes, etc.).

Come up with a way to do the opposite.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

SECOND

Tuesday, March 13, 2018 3:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

So... the question is how to monetize and incentivize space exploration.

The Democrats are extremely good at thinking up and enacting tax schemes to manipulate individual behavior (cigarette taxes, etc.).

Come up with a way to do the opposite.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

A poor as dirt country like North Korea has built intercontinental ballistic missiles and H-bombs. It didn't do it for the money, but rather to glorify its Dear Leader. If North Korea was motivated by money, then nothing would have happened. They would have simply given up and surrendered to the South Koreans, kind of like East Germany surrendered to West Germans, and then North Korea would have become vastly richer, same as happened to East Germany.

As far as monetizing space exploration, that will only take you so far. SpaceX wants to land man on Mars. SpaceX might land a few people on Mars in a suicide mission, but Elon Musk won't keep sending millions of people and billions of tons of supplies to Mars, establishing his self supporting colony that could build its own space ships, because he will run out of money.

What Musk needs is for America to pay him to do it, after he has shown that his technology works. America is not crazy like North Korea. If a Mars colony would glorify Dear Leader, North Korea would colonize Mars and to hell with the cost. America won't. America will not pay what it will take to settle Mars. America might pay for a few missions, after Musk does the first one, just for America's prestige, but that's it, unless there are secret vaults under the dust of Mars full of billion year old artifacts that make Congress greedy for more Martian antiques.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_states_of_Germany#Economy