The Last Jedi Discussion

POSTED BY: SHINYGOODGUY
UPDATED: Monday, April 23, 2018 00:27
VIEWED: 12488
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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
I have an idea.
Let's recount the scenes from The Last Jedi which were worthwhile.

It should be a short list, compared to the others.

These would be scenes which, without regard to the story arc, would fit in, mesh with what we saw in Episodes IV - VI. If your assertion is challenged, be prepared to offer examples.


Off the top of my head:
General/Admiral Holdo saves the day.
Rose saves Finn.
Luke at the Cave Showdown, vs. Kylo.
Rey opening the backdoor of the Cave.
Paige Tico releasing the ordinance.
Beebee droid spewing coins as an offensive weapon.
Gen Hux thinking the loss of Supreme Ruler means he is in charge, then being reminded where the Power resides - perhaps the best scene for this character.
Rose zapping Finn, trying to use an escape pod.
Replaying the R2D2 Hologram message from Princess Leia to Obi-wan.
Luke on Millennium Falcon, and with Chewbacca.
Rose figuring out how the active crack ng works, when nobody else bothers.
Millennium Falcon flying shots.


Who else can think of others?

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Yes, another worthwhile scene is Rey climbing up and down an Island mountain to put a light saber in her hand. For comedy! Imagine that! A Jedi refusing to use The Force to draw a light saber to them! IIRC, she had as already drawn this one during her duel with Kylo, from some distance. Perhaps Luke was using his Mastery of The Force to hold the lightsaber down to that spot, just to force Rey to climb all about to get to it.
These Jedi kids are a gag-a-minute, I tell ya.

The toss itself seems flippant, petulant, disrespectful of The Force. Not qualities I had associated with Jedi.

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The toss itself seems flippant, petulant, disrespectful of The Force. Not qualities I had associated with Jedi.

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Totally out of character for a Jedi, and for Luke. Many have said that it was a "fuck you" to JJ Abrams, but, more importantly, a "fuck you" to the fan base. This is a part of the Jedi lore, and those millions of fans who cosplay and the kids who ask mommy and daddy "Can I please have a lightsaber like Luke Skywalker."

To me it was a total slap in the face as a fan, so I could imagine those who truly delve into the movie magic of becoming a Jedi in real life. People take their Star Wars seriously.

Like it or not, Mark Hamill and the original Star Wars cast, are like gods to these people. Disney shouldn't fuck with the fan base, billions are at stake. Skywalker is not just an iconic hero in cinema history. To the millions of fans he is REAL!

SGG

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The newest book release by Lee Child in the Jack Reacher series is Midnight Line. Reacher finds a Class Ring from West Point, which was the First University in America, and started the Class Ring tradition. Reacher considers it unlikely that after doing all to accomplish what that Ring signifies, a fellow Point Alumni would readily part with it, and pursuit g the owner starts a new book.

For all that Luke had to do to Master The Force, Master the lightsaber, focus and stay on the side of Light, resist the Dark Side, the lightsaber must have represented a significant portion of his life. For him to truly discard it, he must be disassociated with Mastery, The Force, and Jedi mindset.

I have no idea if I will ever view TLJ again, or bother watching Episode IX (or Disney Episode 3). But I do want to watch Rogue One a few more times.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
I have an idea.
Let's recount the scenes from The Last Jedi which were worthwhile.

It should be a short list, compared to the others.

These would be scenes which, without regard to the story arc, would fit in, mesh with what we saw in Episodes IV - VI. GIf your assertion is challenged, be prepared to offer examples.


Off the top of my head:
General/Admiral Holdo saves the day.
Rose saves Finn.
Luke at the Cave Showdown, vs. Kylo.
Rey opening the backdoor of the Cave.
Paige Tico releasing the ordinance.
Beebee droid spewing coins as an offensive weapon.
Gen Hux thinking the loss of Supreme Ruler means he is in charge, then being reminded where the Power resides - perhaps the best scene for this character.
Rose zapping Finn, trying to use an escape pod.
Replaying the R2D2 Hologram message from Princess Leia to Obi-wan.
Luke on Millennium Falcon, and with Chewbacca.
Rose figuring out how the active crack ng works, when nobody else bothers.
Millennium Falcon flying shots.


Who else can think of others?

---

Yes, another worthwhile scene is Rey climbing up and down an Island mountain to put a light saber in her hand. For comedy! Imagine that! A Jedi refusing to use The Force to draw a light saber to them! IIRC, she had as already drawn this one during her duel with Kylo, from some distance, in TFA. Perhaps Luke was using his Mastery of The Force to hold the lightsaber down to that spot, just to force Rey to climb all about to get to it.
These Jedi kids are a gag-a-minute, I tell ya.

The toss itself seems flippant, petulant, disrespectful of The Force. Not qualities I had associated with Jedi.

---

Quote:

---

The toss itself seems flippant, petulant, disrespectful of The Force. Not qualities I had associated with Jedi.

---

Totally out of character for a Jedi, and for Luke. Many have said that it was a "fuck you" to JJ Abrams, but, more importantly, a "fuck you" to the fan base. This is a part of the Jedi lore, and those millions of fans who cosplay and the kids who ask mommy and daddy "Can I please have a lightsaber like Luke Skywalker."

To me it was a total slap in the face as a fan, so I could imagine those who truly delve into the movie magic of becoming a Jedi in real life. People take their Star Wars seriously.

Like it or not, Mark Hamill and the original Star Wars cast, are like gods to these people. Disney shouldn't fuck with the fan base, billions are at stake. Skywalker is not just an iconic hero in cinema history. To the millions of fans he is REAL!

SGG

---

OK. I got it now. I figured it out. Here is why they are saying throw away everything you know, love, hold dear about Star Wars, because this is the new Surreality of Disney Star Wars.
The old Bob Newhart Show was ending a successful run years ago. The final episode in essence declared that the entire series was just a dream, and he woke up next to Suzanne Pleshette as his character from his first show.
TLJ, being a completely derivative work without any original ideas, concepts, or story arc, is paying homage to Bob Newhart. That's it!

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It took me a while to decide why I had such a problem with The Last Jedi. I think it's mostly because it seemed like they were playing with someone else's toys and they were breaking them with disregard.

I don't think the prequels did any favors to continuity in Star Wars, but I had hoped that Disney would not make a similar mistake. Instead they threw world building out the window with this movie. Just a handful of things that don't fit and will be problematic in the future: what was Poe stalling for in his x-wing? Something was charging up (his engines?) but this is unlike anything we've ever seen in any ship (including x-wings) in the Star Wars universe. What was with the shields in this movie? That is not how shields have ever been portrayed before in Star Wars. Did technology change in the days between The Force Awakens and this movie? Speaking of which what was with the trajectory of laser fire from the star destoryers? Do lasers have weight? Is there gravity in space now? Again that is a "cool special effect" but it doesn't make sense in world. Another cool moment was the hyper space suicide attack. However, if that is such a destructive maneuver why wouldn't the rebels use this technique almost constantly? Heck they could have destroyed both Deathstars with the loss of only a few capital ships. Ugh I need to stop there.

It just seems like they didn't care about the Star Wars universe and they were trying to just do whatever they thought would look cool. Which is also the issue with Luke. They wanted to do something unexpected and I guess therefore "cool" with his character. However, they didn't do that in a way that was true to his character. Luke was full of hope and an eternal optimist. There's no way he'd instinctively think to kill his nephew or any child for that matter. That's just not who he is. Sure it's been 30+ years and people change, but if Luke changed that extensively then we're going to need some backstory to explain it. Not just "I sensed darkness". Please. Darth Vader was complicit in the destruction of an entire planet and Luke held out hope that he could be redeemed.

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Quote:

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It took me a while to decide why I had such a problem with The Last Jedi. I think it's mostly because it seemed like they were playing with someone else's toys and they were breaking them with disregard.

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That is the perfect way of saying it.

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Originally posted by Moose:

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It took me a while to decide why I had such a problem with The Last Jedi. I think it's mostly because it seemed like they were playing with someone else's toys and they were breaking them with disregard.

---

That is the perfect way of saying it.

---

Agreed.

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Brutal and hilarious comedic take on The Last Jedi pitch.

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The Last Jedi is a tragedy
www.vox.com/culture/2018/1/12/16834684/the-last-jedi-lost-its-nerve

Director Rian Johnson didn’t go far enough. He feints and flirts with deeper, darker themes, but loses his nerve before the tone and trajectory of the saga are seriously threatened.

Johnson has a great sense of style and visual flair, so it’s easy to get caught up in the adventure. But a dispassionate examination of events as they unfold in the film reveals that, at its heart, The Last Jedi is a bleak and unremitting tragedy. Johnson just never quite musters the courage to let the audience feel it.

Here are just a few of the depressing developments that befall General Leia’s Resistance:

1) Poe defies a direct order and gets the entire Resistance bombing fleet, half its fighter pilots, and the bulk of its military leadership wiped out. (We’ll talk more about Poe later. That f’ing guy.)

2) Finn and Rose rush off to disable the First Order tracker but fail because they are jailed for a parking violation, though they did free those horse things.

3) The last-ditch plan to save the Resistance by launching transports to an abandoned base is leaked by Poe, the leak is heard by Finn and Rose’s criminal companion, who saves himself from execution alongside Finn and Rose by leaking to the First Order about the “cloaking” of the rebel transports, leading to hundreds of deaths among the remaining Rebels.

4) The Resistance’s desperate call for help is ignored across the galaxy and a handful of Rebels barely escape through Luke sacrificing his life. The End.

I mean, that is some awful, awful stuff. Like I said: a tragedy.

But ... does it feel like that?

Take the Finn-and-Rose casino storyline. Many people have criticized it for being a waste of time that had no effect on the larger plot. Technically, though, it had an enormous plot consequence: It tipped off the First Order to the existence of the transports and led to their wholesale destruction. It triggered the final blow that wiped out the Resistance. It was, in retrospect, a horrific and fateful miscalculation on every level.

It feels inessential, though, because it’s not played as a mistake or a tragedy. It’s played as a madcap romp. Even afterward, Finn and Rose do not seem particularly troubled that they played a direct role in the death of thousands of their fellow Rebels. The Director Johnson never slows down and lets it sink in.

Literally nothing the Rebels try, right up to the doomed ground attack on Crait, works. It all fails. Almost everyone is killed.

But there is little sense of consequence, no tears, no crippling grief for the failure. The events of the story only make sense as tragedy.

Admittedly, if Johnson had the audience feeling the tragedy then the movie’s box office haul would have suffered. Disney would have been unhappy. He probably would have joined Colin Trevorrow on the list of fired Star Wars directors.

Speaking of decisions and consequences, let’s talk about Poe. The guy is a 360-degree disaster — and more than that, a repudiation of one of the central archetypes of the Star Wars universe — precisely because he is impulsive, short-sighted, hot-headed, and possessed of a confidence that wildly outstrips his knowledge or judgment.

Again and again, women try to set him straight, but he ignores or defies them. And he is not alone. Luke, Kylo, Finn — at one point or another, every major male character disregards the pleas of his far more sensible female counterpart, to disastrous effect.

For a while, it seems that Johnson is determined to teach fanboys the scariest lesson of all: That they should listen to women. But again, he stops short.

Carl von Clausewitz argued in his famous On War that, in war, political objectives must always guide and transcend tactical or strategic objectives — and that field commanders are prone to neglecting this truth, driving for tactical advantage at any cost. That’s essentially what Poe does, by shooting at anything he doesn’t like. He can’t see past his next move. And so,

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Ousted 'Star Wars' director made Daisy Ridley cry when he told her what would happen to Rey

Bobby Moynihan said he witnessed a fascinating interaction between former "Episode IX" director Colin Trevorrow and Daisy Ridley, who plays Rey in the saga.

Ridley wanted to know from Trevorrow what happens to Rey in the final movie of the trilogy.

More at www.slashfilm.com/colin-trevorrow-star-wars-episode-9-pitch-daisy-ridl
ey/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Quote:

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Originally posted by second:
The Last Jedi is a tragedy
www.vox.com/culture/2018/1/12/16834684/the-last-jedi-lost-its-nerve

Director Rian Johnson didn’t go far enough. He feints and flirts with deeper, darker themes, but loses his nerve before the tone and trajectory of the saga are seriously threatened.

Johnson has a great sense of style and visual flair, so it’s easy to get caught up in the adventure. But a dispassionate examination of events as they unfold in the film reveals that, at its heart, The Last Jedi is a bleak and unremitting tragedy. Johnson just never quite musters the courage to let the audience feel it.

Here are just a few of the depressing developments that befall General Leia’s Resistance:

1) Poe defies a direct order and gets the entire Resistance bombing fleet, half its fighter pilots, and the bulk of its military leadership wiped out. (We’ll talk more about Poe later. That f’ing guy.)

2) Finn and Rose rush off to disable the First Order tracker but fail because they are jailed for a parking violation, though they did free those horse things.

3) The last-ditch plan to save the Resistance by launching transports to an abandoned base is leaked by Poe, the leak is heard by Finn and Rose’s criminal companion, who saves himself from execution alongside Finn and Rose by leaking to the First Order about the “cloaking” of the rebel transports, leading to hundreds of deaths among the remaining Rebels.

4) The Resistance’s desperate call for help is ignored across the galaxy and a handful of Rebels barely escape through Luke sacrificing his life. The End.

I mean, that is some awful, awful stuff. Like I said: a tragedy.

But ... does it feel like that?

Take the Finn-and-Rose casino storyline. Many people have criticized it for being a waste of time that had no effect on the larger plot. Technically, though, it had an enormous plot consequence: It tipped off the First Order to the existence of the transports and led to their wholesale destruction. It triggered the final blow that wiped out the Resistance. It was, in retrospect, a horrific and fateful miscalculation on every level.

It feels inessential, though, because it’s not played as a mistake or a tragedy. It’s played as a madcap romp. Even afterward, Finn and Rose do not seem particularly troubled that they played a direct role in the death of thousands of their fellow Rebels. The Director Johnson never slows down and lets it sink in.

Literally nothing the Rebels try, right up to the doomed ground attack on Crait, works. It all fails. Almost everyone is killed.

But there is little sense of consequence, no tears, no crippling grief for the failure. The events of the story only make sense as tragedy.

Admittedly, if Johnson had the audience feeling the tragedy then the movie’s box office haul would have suffered. Disney would have been unhappy. He probably would have joined Colin Trevorrow on the list of fired Star Wars directors.

Speaking of decisions and consequences, let’s talk about Poe. The guy is a 360-degree disaster — and more than that, a repudiation of one of the central archetypes of the Star Wars universe — precisely because he is impulsive, short-sighted, hot-headed, and possessed of a confidence that wildly outstrips his knowledge or judgment.

Again and again, women try to set him straight, but he ignores or defies them. And he is not alone. Luke, Kylo, Finn — at one point or another, every major male character disregards the pleas of his far more sensible female counterpart, to disastrous effect.

For a while, it seems that Johnson is determined to teach fanboys the scariest lesson of all: That they should listen to women. But again, he stops short.

Carl von Clausewitz argued in his famous On War that, in war, political objectives must always guide and transcend tactical or strategic objectives — and that field commanders are prone to neglecting this truth, driving for tactical advantage at any cost. That’s essentially what Poe does, by shooting at anything he doesn’t like.

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