New "Doctor Who" trailer
POSTED BY: whozit
UPDATED: Friday, January 5, 2018 03:14
VIEWED: 14550
PAGE 3 of 5
I'm going to trim some text out here and there to try to keep the length of this down.
AURaptor, I know I'm not going to convince you to change your viewpoint any more than you're going to convince me to change mine, so that's not my intention here. I have some genuine questions, and I'm going to try to ask them as respectfully as I can.
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Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
If The Doctor is a woman or James Bond is black, so what? I mean, as long as the stories are good.
No, not " so what ? ". It matters. 50 years of building a brand , an image, of something which has become to be known to stand for something, and in an instant, that's been hijacked.
As Second has clearly pointed out, the "brand" of Doctor Who has changed considerably over the years. The same is true of something like James Bond. Or Thor. Or Star Wars.
I personally see the current change to The Doctor as further EVOLUTION of that branding. I understand that you may personally LIKE this particular evolution, but how is it hijacking?
As a point of comparison, I'm a lifelong Star Wars fan. Loved the Original Trilogy. Liked the Prequel Trilogy. Not a big fan of the Sequel Trilogy. But to me, that's just evolution and interpretation. Not hijacking.
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Originally posted by AURaptor:
We already know the Doctor is NOT the last of the Timelords. So why the hell not just introduce a way for another to escape, this time a woman? Honestly, how freaking hard is that ?
Because the show is called "Doctor Who." The brand, as you say, is built around THIS PARTICULAR Time Lord. It's the same reason Idris Elba shouldn't play 006.
Suddenly throwing a new character at the center of it... THAT would be hijacking the brand.
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Bond was crafted after a specific individual. He wasn't black, or gay, nor was he a she. That's the POINT!
By your strict interpretation, James Bond should have been retired long ago. And should only have been played by Sean Connery. That's clearly not going to happen. How do you explain that today's James Bond is the same age, if not younger than, the James Bond of 50 years ago? You can't.
If Bond is a specific individual, he is a specific individual who is constantly reinterpreted and reimagined. The original movie James Bond was an animal of the Cold War, and has been reinterpreted multiple times (sometimes successfully, others, not so much) to move past that.
For the record, I'm not saying that the idea that there are multiple spies is the role of "James Bond, 007" is any more or less valid that the "solo individual" approach, just that many folks have interpreted it that way to resolve the logical conundrums. I have no personal preference myself.
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It doesn't prohibit that any of those - gay, black, female, dwarf, trans... could ALSO be their own brand of "00" agent. In fact, it's a sad shortcut to appropriate / steal / over write, what ever works best for you, another established character just to appease the whims of a lazy current culture.
I find it ironic that you're using the argument that changes to a particular "brand" are negative - but changes to match the prevailing currents are exactly what good branding does. That's the POINT of branding - to have timeless core elements that can successfully evolve and change.
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All white males, btw. After the original real life individual who the character was created.
All white males FOR NOW, btw. Time marches on.
And also James Bond may have some roots in reality, those roots have diminished over time, and at this point, any attempt to anchor him by such (unless it were the point of a particular story and interpretation) is pointless. The current Daniel Craig version of James Bond alone throws a lot of the earlier versions into disarray, forget about some distant and largely forg
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There was Coke. Some genius thought up the idea of NEW Coke. It almost sank the brand.
But throwing a new character , a female for a male's part, that IS changing the brand.
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By your strict interpretation, James Bond should have been retired long ago. And should only have been played by Sean Connery. That's clearly not going to happen. How do you explain that today's James Bond is the same age, if not younger than, the James Bond of 50 years ago? You can't.
Umm, no. James Bond wasn't even the REAL person for which the character was made, so this is nonsense. The Bond character , as much as it annoys you to read, is white, male, and British. ( Not sure how that's an overly strict interpretation. It's pretty basic, actually ) That the ACTOR playing Bond isn't British doesn't change the fact, because ... it's ACTING. You're not going to suggest Idris Elba PLAY the role of a white 00 agent, are you ? Nor should you say the same for a woman playing the Doctor.
Santa Claus was based on an actual person, St. Nicolas. The fabricated character which arouse from that person wasn't black, Asian or a lesbian. It REALLY isn't that hard to follow that , yes, the character can change in appearance and personality, the template of ' Santa' remains the same.
You want to foster a NEW character w/ any array of diversity , for the sake of inclusiveness, by all means, make your own. Don't steal another one already established.
Sorry, but science doesn't cater to social mores. The XX / XY reality of chromosomes is as it was 100,000 years ago. Gender fluidity is a fad.
I won't be a fan from now on, that's for sure. Sad they ended the series as they did, but 54 years is an epic run.
The writers could have gone any number of ways. Even black, Asian, gay , what ever, as long as it was a male. But switching genders is simply a bridge too far.
But hey, know what ? Hope it all works out and the series goes strong for another 50 years. Enjoy.
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Ask Marvel comics how their attempt at changing all of the characters to minorities and females have gone.
Short answer... Nobody buys Marvel comics anymore.
To pretend this appropriation isn't everywhere now on one hand and then scream at whites, particularly white males when they "appropriate" somebody else's culture in blatant hypocritical fashion is the definition of problematic.
I think dreadlocks look stupid on white people. But they can wear them if they want to. Anybody who's not white and says otherwise can just stop using the internet... hell... they can stop using electricity. Both of which were invented by white men.
I'd think it would be insulting if I was a black guy or a woman and they had to ape long time white characters like they do. What? You can't create a new character that people would watch?
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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This is one of the reasons I haven't posted here in a long time, and probably won't much in the future either. Too many butt-hurt conservatives who can't stand a little change in their life. And even when the poster is more liberal like myself, I don't always agree with their position either, especially when they make the same type of ad hominem attacks.
I'm not going to do anyone's homework for them, but if I cared to I could search and provide links to articles that were published back in the early 80s when Tom Baker was leaving the show. Both he and the BBC said they were considering a change to a woman, and Baker said he thought it was a good idea. I'm sure if they had, there would have been even more of a backlash then than now.
I haven't seen The Last Jedi yet, so haven't been reading those threads, but I have seen other places where there's been a lot of whinging about the SJW agenda. Without details about the film, I'm still convinced I'll think those arguments are utter bullshit too.
Jodie Whitaker is a very good actress, and I don't doubt she will do credit to the role. I hope all viewers give her a chance, just as every new actor to the role deserves a chance. I'm certainly looking forward to it, and I wish we didn't have to wait so long. Still no word on when her first episode will air.
ETA: I'd welcome anything Idris Elba cares to do, even James Bond.
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Originally posted by ecgordon:
This is one of the reasons I haven't posted here in a long time, and probably won't much in the future either. Too many butt-hurt conservatives who can't stand a little change in their life. And even when the poster is more liberal like myself, I don't always agree with their position either, especially when they make the same type of ad hominem attacks.
I'm not going to do anyone's homework for them, but if I cared to I could search and provide links to articles that were published back in the early 80s when Tom Baker was leaving the show. Both he and the BBC said they were considering a change to a woman, and Baker said he thought it was a good idea. I'm sure if they had, there would have been even more of a backlash then than now.
I appreciate how you dismiss valid and well thought out reasons for why some dislike the idea of this change and cast if off as mere ' butt hurt '. Sorry,but you don't get to dictate to others how they're suppose to feel about - anything.
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I haven't seen The Last Jedi yet, so haven't been reading those threads, but I have seen other places where there's been a lot of whinging about the SJW agenda. Without details about the film, I'm still convinced I'll think those arguments are utter bullshit too.
I guess my main beef w/ the new eps are that Ben Solo comes off as a whiny emo brat who has no valid claim for moving to the dark side. Both his parents are alive, neither were kidnaped, tortured and raped by Tusken raiders, and no one has a clue who Snoke was, as he some how turned Ben from long distance ? Meh... lame.
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Jodie Whitaker is a very good actress, and I don't doubt she will do credit to the role. I hope all viewers give her a chance, just as every new actor to the role deserves a chance. I'm certainly looking forward to it, and I wish we didn't have to wait so long. Still no word on when her first episode will air.
ETA: I'd welcome anything Idris Elba cares to do, even James Bond.
Jodie's fine. But she's not the problem.
Idris Elba is a bad ass. He'd be awesome in just about anything. Especially as another OO agent. But he's not James Bond. Silly to think Ian Flemming ,who used himself and his own brother , among others, as inspiration for Bond. None of which look anything like Idris. Just sayin'.
Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.
" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall
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Okay, I apologize for the "butt-hurt" remark, that was inappropriate. But that doesn't mean I agree you have a valid and well thought out point.
"It's never been this way, I don't want it to change, so it shouldn't change" is not valid or well thought out. It's petty.
Hell, forget about Idris Elba, I'd like to see a woman take on the role of Jane Bond. There is no valid argument against that being a good idea. James Bond is a fictional character, it doesn't matter who he was based on. A woman could be just as action-oriented, and ruthless, as a male Bond. And I believe Jodie Whitaker will prove that The Doctor can be a woman, and excel at it. If she doesn't work out, I'll be willing to admit it.
As for 6String's comment about Marvel comics, we shouldn't overlook the fact that a lot of women are ridiculed as "fake geeks" and they may not be comfortable in the typically male-centric comic shops. A lot of people prefer to buy the trade paperback collections rather than individual issues, but that means the individual issues don't get enough pre-orders, leading Marvel and the shop owners to the conclusion certain titles are not in demand.
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Originally posted by ecgordon:
Okay, I apologize for the "butt-hurt" remark, that was inappropriate. But that doesn't mean I agree you have a valid and well thought out point.
"It's never been this way, I don't want it to change, so it shouldn't change" is not valid or well thought out. It's petty.
That's not my positon at all. " It's never been this way " is an objective fact. " I don't want it to change " , isn't petty at all. In some cases, it makes sense for change to occur. ( Spider-Man , Ironman , Captain America... all can 'change', do to their character's creation and who can wear the mask, the suit, or carry the shield. ) " So it shouldn't change ". As I said, some cases it's not an issue. Others, big issue. And as w/ The Doctor, or James Bond, these are characters which have stood the test of time being basically varying degrees of the same basic design.
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Hell, forget about Idris Elba, I'd like to see a woman take on the role of Jane Bond. There is no valid argument against that being a good idea. James Bond is a fictional character, it doesn't matter who he was based on. A woman could be just as action-oriented, and ruthless, as a male Bond. And I believe Jodie Whitaker will prove that The Doctor can be a woman, and excel at it. If she doesn't work out, I'll be willing to admit it.
Jane would be ...well, a different person. Fair enough. But Bond ? Does she HAVE to be related, or bear the same name ? I think with Bond, too many are getting fished in w/ the view that the character is ONLY awesome because of the name. ( Gee, now why would that be ? ) But Bond is just an agent. A very GOOD agent, as the premise dictates, or otherwise we'd not have his long lasting reputation on which to build. And we all know what reputation is
And we already have dozens of bad ass women. how would you feel about Dirk, the Vampire Slayer ? Or Wonder Man ? Larry Croft: Tomb Raider ?
There's so much more I could go into all this, but it's clear that what's been done is done, I'm not going to accept it, and those who think it's fine or even awesome will get to enjoy what ever comes next.
Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.
" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall
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I'm not a Conservative.
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I'm not a Conservative.
Do Right, Be Right. :)
Don't you just love it when others label you and try to fit you into a box of their own design and definition ?
Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.
" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall
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At least he didn't call me Alt-Right or a Nazi.
I think it's funny how the Left has gotten so bad in the last 10 years that I agree with you on more things these days Rap. I don't recall us seeing eye to eye on much back in 2007.
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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