2 1/2 Days to Go...& Still Undecided

POSTED BY: BrownShirtsRock
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 3, 2004 21:20
VIEWED: 10757
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ARAWAEN

Monday, November 1, 2004 7:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownShirtsRock:
Please tell me who you are voting for in the U.S. Presidential Election and why. Maybe seeing some of your opinions will help me decide.

All voting is a sort of gaming, like checkers or backgammon, with a slight moral tinge to it, a playing with right and wrong, with moral questions; and betting naturally accompanies it. The character of the voters is not staked. I cast my vote, perchance, as I think right; but I am not vitally concerned that that right should prevail. I am willing to leave it to the majority. Its obligation, therefore, never exceeds that of expediency. Even voting for the right is doing nothing for it. It is only expressing to men feebly your desire that it should prevail. A wise man will not leave the right to the mercy of chance, nor wish it to prevail through the power of the majority. There is but little virtue in the action of masses of men. When the majority shall at length vote for the abolition of slavery, it will be because they are indifferent to slavery, or because there is but little slavery left to be abolished by their vote. They will then be the only slaves. Only his vote can hasten the abolition of slavery who asserts his own freedom by his vote.

-- Henry David Thoreau

Knowledge is sorrow; they who know the most
Must mourn the deepest o'er the fatal truth,
The Tree of Knowledge is not that of Life.
-- Byron

MOHRSTOUTBEARD

Monday, November 1, 2004 7:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by WaddleDoodle:
Okay. Lets clear this up please. Proclaiming that the DRAFT is coming back if Bush wins is nonsense. 2 Democrates sponsered the legislation and it was shot down. NO DRAFT IS COMING. That's a fact. Kerry/Edwards IS STILL stoking the imagination of uninformed 18 year olds that they are going to war via a draft.

Bush says there won't be a draft if he's re-elected. But, then again, he said that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and working ties with al Qaeda, too. Take that for what you will.

Quote:
Originally posted by WaddleDoodle:
So YOU'RE SAYING THAT the above scenario can't happen? Because Dick Cheney stated a possible terror scenario, a desirable scenario for the terrorists, it's a load of "Fear mongering" and we should ignore it as POLITICAL.

No, I'm saying that fear is an effective tactic to keep people in line, and Cheney likes to play the fear card. You don't think the rallies he says these things in are politically-oriented?

Quote:
Originally posted by WaddleDoodle:
Wow. That was a great point. You really proved me wrong. "I'm not an informed citizen" Wow, how can I recover? Please lord help me, I'm at a loss for words, the Mother of All points has been made. Oh, the sting of your retort...can I ever leave my bed again? See, I can be snarky to. Back to the point - Please illuminate how I'm misinformed on making a statement of fact about the terrorists. Is your point that Islamo-fascists AREN'T killing people? The Wahabists are all about kittens and sunshine and flying kites?

. . .I was talking about bears.

Quote:
Originally posted by WaddleDoodle:
Look, I understand that some believe Government run healthcare is the way to go.

My point was just that, whatever Kerry's policies on healthcare may be, they seem like a far cry from "government run healthcare." Maybe I'm just a dirty, misinformed Communist, though.

Quote:
Originally posted by WaddleDoodle:
I recommend that folks read more than one web page to decide how to vote. Do the leg work, call the local parties, go to the library, actually do some research. A web page is a filter that's still in the hands of one person or small group.

Because, obviously, if I recommend a website, it's absolutely, positively the only website I've ever visited or get my information from. In fact, I'm not even posting on this message board. It's all in your imagination! I'm too busy being brainwashed by a non-partisan fact checking resource!

PS: SignyM, when you said, "Ergo, bananas cause babies!" I imagined it in Eddie Izzard's voice. So fifty points to you for reminding me of one of my favorite comedians.

"You've just gotta go ahead and change the captain of your brainship, because he's drunk at the wheel."

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, November 2, 2004 12:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

"Educational Accoutability"- I live in an area where pilot school voucher programs and charter schools provide an alternative to failed public schools. My teacher friends are pissed at the extra work they have getting kids ready for tests, but their kids have seen improved scores in the last two years.

You still haven't answer the question, where are the parents?

So what, the teachers have to work harder. Everyone bitches about have more on there plate.

So what, the students test better. Does this mean that they understand things better? No. All it means is that they test better, especially when it comes to the atrocity that is standardized testing. Good test scores do *not* mean good students nor understanding.

If the parents were around and actually did the job that they should, the teacher could teach instead of doing what the parents should be doing.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

"War- another tax issue"-
[snip]
A better argument then taxes is "where are the jobs?" Answer, I got mine. I have a high paying job that didn't exist three years ago. Answer, you'll get yours, jobs are a lagging indicator, but this year already has added over 1.5 million new jobs and the unemployment rate is 5.4% (down from over 6% during the Clinton legacy/terror recession of 2000-2002).

I was watching C-SPAN one day and saw a nobel winner in economics giving a talk. He stated that even if GW did absolutely nothing that it would be a miracle if there wasn't 1.5 million jobs created. So, victory Bush, I think not.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

And Clinton's people viewed terror as a criminal issue as well. The 9/11 Report does not condemn Clinton, and niether do I, but what it does indicate is that the "criminal" approach failed to check Al Queda's growth and laid the seeds for 9/11. We cannot go back, we need to move ahead.

Where as Bush in the months leading up to 9/11 wouldn't read a report that the intellegence people were trying desperately to get him to read, entitled something like, "Al Qaeda planning imminent attack". Woo hoo, forward Bush goes.

On another note, I said something a couple days ago that my wife found funny and so I think that at least some of you will too.

If the bible has taught us one thing, it's not to listen to flaming Bush's.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

JASONZZZ

Tuesday, November 2, 2004 12:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

"Educational Accoutability"- I live in an area where pilot school voucher programs and charter schools provide an alternative to failed public schools. My teacher friends are pissed at the extra work they have getting kids ready for tests, but their kids have seen improved scores in the last two years.

You still haven't answer the question, where are the parents?

So what, the teachers have to work harder. Everyone bitches about have more on there plate.

So what, the students test better. Does this mean that they understand things better? No. All it means is that they test better, especially when it comes to the atrocity that is standardized testing. Good test scores do *not* mean good students nor understanding.

If the parents were around and actually did the job that they should, the teacher could teach instead of doing what the parents should be doing.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

"War- another tax issue"-
[snip]
A better argument then taxes is "where are the jobs?" Answer, I got mine. I have a high paying job that didn't exist three years ago. Answer, you'll get yours, jobs are a lagging indicator, but this year already has added over 1.5 million new jobs and the unemployment rate is 5.4% (down from over 6% during the Clinton legacy/terror recession of 2000-2002).

I was watching C-SPAN one day and saw a nobel winner in economics giving a talk. He stated that even if GW did absolutely nothing that it would be a miracle if there wasn't 1.5 million jobs created. So, victory Bush, I think not.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

And Clinton's people viewed terror as a criminal issue as well. The 9/11 Report does not condemn Clinton, and niether do I, but what it does indicate is that the "criminal" approach failed to check Al Queda's growth and laid the seeds for 9/11. We cannot go back, we need to move ahead.

Where as Bush in the months leading up to 9/11 wouldn't read a report that the intellegence people were trying desperately to get him to read, entitled something like, "Al Qaeda planning imminent attack". Woo hoo, forward Bush goes.

which is another report out of 100 that he has to read every single day. This particular one was prioritized down because of a lack of detail in specific place, time, method of deployment, etc. What would you have the guy do? or anyone do for that matter? It is exactly this type of dumbass second guessing that led to the completely stupid terrorism alerts that we've had in the last several years. "Today the terror alert was raised to a maroon *extra cautious*. There is a *credible* threat that terrorist is planning something somewhere - we know not what - and will attack soon but at a unknown timeframe. Dear Citizens, be *extra cautious* and have a good day".

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

On another note, I said something a couple days ago that my wife found funny and so I think that at least some of you will too.

If the bible has taught us one thing, it's not to listen to flaming Bush's.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, November 2, 2004 12:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by WaddleDoodle:

I live in Jersey. We lost 700 neighbors. I have friends deployed abroad defending our nation and defending Western civilization.

I truly am sorry that you lost some friends in 9/11. It is something that no-one should undergo. I also admitt that I nor many people can understand what you went (and/or are) through.

But even still, things need to be brough into perspective. You must try to see through the red and at least attempt to make some logical descision. Even if that path leads to the same end.

The perspective I mentioned is this. Gwynne Dyer, a journalist, came to speak at my university. He mentioned that he counted the number of people that were killed world wide in terrorist attacks in the past 3 years.

There are approx. 1000 days with under 1000 deaths, terrorist related which makes approx. 1 per day. I we include 9/11 american deaths, approx. 3000 this raises the daily total to 4 per day.

I'm sorry, but I can't call something with such a low death toll a priority. There are other things in this world that need doing. ie AIDS, Cancer, Hunger, etc

Speaking generally now.
And by the way, western civilization needs not your protection. We haven't run around the world and killed indiscriminately for the past few decades. History *has* shown that.

Take care of yourself and stop trying to represent us. The terrorists might think that we support you and then we'll get attacked too. And stop pissing around in other peoples countries. It's really irritating and has cost a lot of life that didn't need to be wasted.

Basically, stop, take a breath, and

think. *Then* take your next step.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, November 2, 2004 1:14 AM

First off, stop quoting entire posts if you are only replying to one part of it. Proper neteqette dictates that you only quote the part that you are replying to. This is for those that don't have fast inet connections.

And, I might mention, that it will save Haken some through-put making this site faster in the long run (lots of views makes a little extra a lot by many page views).

Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

which is another report out of 100 that he has to read every single day. This particular one was prioritized down because of a lack of detail in specific place, time, method of deployment, etc. What would you have the guy do? or anyone do for that matter? It is exactly this type of dumbass second guessing that led to the completely stupid terrorism alerts that we've had in the last several years. "Today the terror alert was raised to a maroon *extra cautious*. There is a *credible* threat that terrorist is planning something somewhere - we know not what - and will attack soon but at a unknown timeframe. Dear Citizens, be *extra cautious* and have a good day".

Secondly, I expect GW to read all these reports (or at least the summaries). This sort of thing is not to be toyed with.

And how would he know about any non-specific stuff that would be in the report if he didn't read it.

I would also think that he clearly had the time to read it as he had lots of time to go on vacation.

And this type of thing *never* leads to second guessing, etc. If he was an intellegent man he wouldn've read it, and made proper preperations as he saw fit (note: this doesn't nessassarily mean notifying the public).

After all, a stitch in time saves nine.

And by the way, you can't compare the past to the present in this case. It's apples and oranges. The only commonality is that, GW was being irresponsible back then when he didn't read the report, and GW's appointed Homeland Security Dept. is being irresponsible now with the mentioned levels, etc.

Basically, one must dig and obtain intellegence *before* making a descion. This is clearly an idea that GW (or anyone in his Admin.) hasn't been aquainted with *coughiraqcough*. GW didn't do it then, and hasn't done it... hmm, well, ever.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

WADDLEDOODLE

Tuesday, November 2, 2004 1:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:
Originally posted by WaddleDoodle:

I live in Jersey. We lost 700 neighbors. I have friends deployed abroad defending our nation and defending Western civilization.

I truly am sorry that you lost some friends in 9/11. It is something that no-one should undergo. I also admitt that I nor many people can understand what you went (and/or are) through.

But even still, things need to be brough into perspective. You must try to see through the red and at least attempt to make some logical descision. Even if that path leads to the same end.

The perspective I mentioned is this. Gwynne Dyer, a journalist, came to speak at my university. He mentioned that he counted the number of people that were killed world wide in terrorist attacks in the past 3 years.

There are approx. 1000 days with under 1000 deaths, terrorist related which makes approx. 1 per day. I we include 9/11 american deaths, approx. 3000 this raises the daily total to 4 per day.

I'm sorry, but I can't call something with such a low death toll a priority. There are other things in this world that need doing. ie AIDS, Cancer, Hunger, etc

Speaking generally now.
And by the way, western civilization needs not your protection. We haven't run around the world and killed indiscriminately for the past few decades. History *has* shown that.

Take care of yourself and stop trying to represent us. The terrorists might think that we support you and then we'll get attacked too. And stop pissing around in other peoples countries. It's really irritating and has cost a lot of life that didn't need to be wasted.

Basically, stop, take a breath, and think. *Then* take your next step.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

Well, since I refuse to spread the 3000 American deaths over the world wide daily total like any other statistic, those Americans lives mean more to me than you. That's fine. You most certainly are in the minority on that point. Even John Kerry isn't as nutty as you are on that issue. To sum up, and I need to be clear:

"The war on AIDs, hngaer and cancer are more important than the war on terror"

Is that an accurate statement? If so, you're advocating we subvert our freedom to terrorists. We would have to, otherwise they would threaten terror evertime we expressed a desire that wasn't approved by them.

"I'm sorry, but I can't call something with such a low death toll a priority. There are other things in this world that need doing. ie AIDS, Cancer, Hunger, etc"

Then the spectre of terrorism is an acceptable way of life to you. What if your family was killed in a terror attack? Would that make it more meaningful to you? What if you're family died in 9/11? Just one parent? Is that still acceptable? Are you able to simply wave that off as a statistic? Is it still statistically acceptable? You honestly wouldn't/don't want the terrorists destroyed so they couldn't kill others? What's an unacceptable level of loss? 10,000? 100,000? When does it meet your criteria. As far as solving hunger, AIDs and other issues that face the world, who do you think is going to do that? Who do you think has the resources? Syria? Iran? No, the United States. Certainly there are other civilized countries working on these problems, but many of their talented minds come here, to live free and work. Furthermore, I DEFY YOU to find a more generous country in the world than the United States. We feed the world. Have you ever travelled abroad? Ever see the prices people pay for food? Do you know that other countries come nowhere NEAR our capacity to feed. The Bush admin pledged BILLIONS of dollars, where the Clinton Admin pledged NOTHING to cure AIDS in Africa. I defy you to find a kinder people on the planet than Americans. Why is that? Because Americans are made of all colors of people from all walks of life from all around the globe, all with one common goal, to live

NEUTRINOLAD

Tuesday, November 2, 2004 1:40 AM

If you must vote on a single issue, let me just offer my opinion that those who say Iraq is another Vietnam are incorrect.

Unfortunately, I think Iraq is our Sicily, and Papa Bush was our Pericles.

Too bad. It was such a nice republic.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, November 2, 2004 1:47 AM

Quote:
Then the spectre of terrorism is an acceptable way of life to you. What if your family was killed in a terror attack? Would that make it more meaningful to you? What if you're family died in 9/11? Just one parent? Is that still acceptable? Are you able to simply wave that off as a statistic? Is it still statistically acceptable? You honestly wouldn't/don't want the terrorists destroyed so they couldn't kill others? What's an unacceptable level of loss? 10,000? 100,000? When does it meet your criteria. As far as solving hunger, AIDs and other issues that face the world, who do you think is going to do that? Who do you think has the resources? Syria? Iran? No, the United States.

All deaths are horrible to those left behind. It doesn't matter if your daughter, uncle, mom, or brother shit themselves to death or were caught in crossfire somewhere. No matter how it happens, it leaves a bleeding hole in your life. And if you've seen a five-year-old crying over the grave of their parent as if they would never stop, or the little girl with the bracelet on her thin wrist... a bracelet given to her by a mom who loved her... refusing to collapse, making the vultures wait a few more hours for their meal, then you would realize that we ALL feel that way... every person around the world feels that way.

I don't think American deaths are more important than any other. They may be more important to US, but that's about it. I don't require that the rest of the world share my are for my fellow countrymen, and to do that is the ultimate hubris.

HOWEVER, I understand that you're saying that death due to terrorism is more significant than death due to starvation because it represents a different process. I'm not sure I automatically agree with that, but it's certainly something to think about.

HERO

Tuesday, November 2, 2004 2:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
First off, stop quoting entire posts if you are only replying to one part of it. Proper neteqette dictates

EVERBODY RUN!!!

ITS THE NETEQETTE POLICE!!

Quick, hide the virtual weed...damn, how do you delete these damn desktop hookers...

Sorry officer, we was just joining the political dialogue. My buddy didn't know he was doin anything wrong.

Liberals are all about speech, just don''t say anything they disagree with or format it in a manner they disaprove of...

Well Bush says that in this post 9/11 world we can't wait for others to approve of how we express our opinions. So if you believe you can quote other posts in whole or in part as YOU choose, then vote Bush.

But if you want JFK and his liberal buddies submitting your opinions to some "global neteqette" test (ie French) then vote for Kerry.

H

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