FIREFLY NECROPSY (#2 of 4) - WHAT WENT WRONG?
POSTED BY: xed
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 02:25
VIEWED: 9694
PAGE 3 of 3
A sort of a general reply to Cpatina, Allronix, and HKcavalier. You know, Firefly fans (with just a couple of exceptions) distinguish themselves as unusually thoughtful and insightful folks.
Someone on another thread remarked that Neal Stephenson's novels had come up several times on this forum, and that was unusual. Well, considering how literate most of the folks on this forum seem, I'm not surprised. There's been a great of very in-depth thought about Firefly (and sci-fi in general) by the folks here.
I would have to agree with much of what Captian and Allronix and KHcavalier have said.
Let me focus on some of the good things about Firefly -- paradoxically, the violence.
Unlike most other shows, the violence in Firefly comes across as shockingly real. Partly, that's due to the depth with which the major characters are drawn -- Kaylee's a real person, and when Jubal Early asks her "Have you ever been raped?" it's genuinely horrifying because it's like watching somebody threaten to rape your sister.
The other thing about Firefly's violence that comes across as real is that it's not "exciting" or "chic," as in, say, those slo-mo sequnces in "The Matrix" or in Peckinpah films like "The Wild Bunch."
The violence in Firefly is *never* pornographic or intended to be thrilling, AFAIK.
And that's a good thing. Firefly's violence is shocking and it comes out of nowhere, and often enough, takes place in the silence of space. The conclusion of "Our Mrs. Reynolds" hwere you see the two villains blown out the window into space in total silecne, comes across as flat and dead-out realistic. It's harsh and sobering. Not some disco extravanganza of bullets flying and background vases exploding with no one hurt, as in all too many movies and TV shows.
So I have to agree completely with all three of you, Captain nd Allronix and HKCavalier, that this is the positive side of violence in Firefly. It reminded me of the violence in "Saving Private Ryan." This is not fun stuff tossed in spice up the programming. No chic dance moves done in slo-mo. It's real people dying. Often enough the violence in Firefly put me in mind of that great line from Clint Eastwood's "Unforgiven" where he says to his younger partner "Killin' a man is a terrible thing. You take away all he has, and all he's ever gonna have."
So many TV shows and movies and even newscasts lack this sense of sobering reality today. Case in point: the 1991 Gulf War. Looked like a friggin' giant video game. Ooh. Pretty. Lots of nice lights in the sky.
We lost sight of the fact that human beings were dying.
Firefly slaps us in the face with the sobering reality of violence. That's a good thing.
And in many of Firefly's episodes, hope does burn through. Certainly at the end of "Airle," definitely at the end of "Jaynestown," albeit dimly. Most assuredly at the end of "Serentiy," the 2-hr pilot. And at the end of "Objects In Space" too.
You know, it could be that people who tuned into Firefly were expecting the stylized slo-mo dance-move "Matrix"-type violence where bullets explode everywhere and nobody but the bad guys gets hurts. A-Team-type phoney violence. Or one of those WWII phoney movies where you could tell nobody was gonna die because the camera dollied in for a lcose-up on their face. Joss Whedon knows better. He kills off major characters without warning. That keeps it real. So when viewers got the real thing in Firefly, instead of the usual phoney cops-n-robbers TV violence, maybe it stuck in some viewers' craws.
I have to say it's the superb writing that made even the suggestion of violence in "Objects In Space" so shocking. That episode did not actually feature any eplicit violence, nothing close to "War Stories" or the 2-hr pilot.
Yet "Objects In Space" came across as the most chilling of all the episodes simply because the magnificent scriptwriting made Jubal Early's threats so completely credible. You had zero doubt that when Early remarks to Kaylee "I could violate your body. And I could find all ma
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It is so obvious. The people who don't fully appreciate Firefly simply don't have a sense of humour. This is why they like the drama in episodes like "Out of Gas" and "War Stories but just don't understand the appeal of the rest of the show. Having a sense of humour is the key to truly appreciating these characters. Some people are under the misapprehension that the Drama is the strength of the show and the rest of the show should have been discarded, but they are wrong. What makes Firefly truly grate is the contrast between the drama and the humour. With out a sense of humour they will only like half the show and find the other half uninteresting. It's as simple as that. I love Firefly because it is funny and disturbing and I wouldn’t want it any other way.
A lack of sense of humour also applies to those who constantly say that the drama is depressing. These people more than any others need to understand the message of Firefly, which is to be able to find humour in a situation when that situations is at its darkest. Firefly is grate show if you understand the show as a whole. Try not to criticise part of the show when you don't understanding how that part relates to the show as a whole. It all comes back to the humour/drama contrast thing (just watch the show it is full of moments when the characters are in peril and they say something funny as result of that peril). If you don't understand what I am getting at then you won't truly understand Firefly.
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Originally posted by xed:
A sort of a general reply to Cpatina, Allronix, and HKcavalier. You know, Firefly fans (with just a couple of exceptions) distinguish themselves as unusually thoughtful and insightful folks.
Hey, we're all just folks. Aside from fanfic, most of my reading is nonfiction...politics, history, religion...spice it with the odd L'Amour or McCaffery.
(Yes, I'm a fan of both, and the combination -Firefly's first selling point fro me)
Let me focus on some of the good things about Firefly -- paradoxically, the violence.
I appreciate that these folks had the balls to play it straight with the violence. You can't believe how gorram SICK I am with the Matrix-style acrobatics and slo-mo. Seems everyone's got in in their heads it's necessary.
This is why I appreciated "War Stories." It didn't blink, didn't demurely cut away, didn't do some "stylish" trick. It just sat there and let us see our heroes writhe in agony, and us with 'em.
It's not the Matrix where the characters behave like it's a giant video game and they have cheat codes. It's not some Tarantino flick where the bar explodes in a gunfight while Bee Gees plays in the background and the characters walk out talking about dry cleaners for their bloodstained suits.
Often enough the violence in Firefly put me in mind of that great line from Clint Eastwood's "Unforgiven" where he says to his younger partner "Killin' a man is a terrible thing. You take away all he has, and all he's ever gonna have."
It's a Western, and the best part about several post-1970 Westerns is that they aren't as clear cut and they tend to get fucking brutal. Take "The Man With No Name" series, Young Guns, Glory, Unforgiven, Tombstone...
So many TV shows and movies and even newscasts lack this sense of sobering reality today. Case in point: the 1991 Gulf War. Looked like a friggin' giant video game. Ooh. Pretty. Lots of nice lights in the sky.
We lost sight of the fact that human beings were dying.
Those of us who didn't were up a creek, too. I still remember being called "traitor," death threats, and my house getting vandalized over my protests of the Gulf War.
(Yes, folks...you are dealing with someone who does not support the current goings-on in the least. I have friends predicting I'll be arrested or killed in the next five years).
You know, it could be that people who tuned into Firefly were expecting the stylized slo-mo dance-move "Matrix"-type violence where bullets explode everywhere and nobody but the bad guys gets hurts. A-Team-type phoney violence. Or one of those WWII phoney movies where you could tell nobody was gonna die because the camera dollied in for a close-up on their face. Joss Whedon knows better.
That could be it. Look at "Fastlane." Look at Enterprise. Hell, even CSI and Law & Order glance over it - attitude of "They're dead, so what."
Other huge strengths of Firefly (IMHO) included the most richly detailed background universe of any science fiction show I've seen. The only show that can compare in that regard is B5 in the 4th season. So Firefly accomplished what it B5 4 years to achieve -- and in just 10 episodes.
BINGO! Unlike a lot of folks, I didn't think B5 was as great as everyone else said it was.
Also, the idea that slavery will exist in the 26th century...that's something that takes you aback. Makes you think. Today, of course, slavery continues in the Sudan and in Mauritania, though we don't like to think about it. Will that really change 500 years from now?
Something else that disturbs me. It would seem that among the very rich and the very poor, the status of women has gone back to the bad old days.
Working-class women like Zoë and Kaylee have more freedom, but look at Shindig with the upper-class women - placid arm ornaments, trophy wives...their only concern is to land a rich man, look good on his arm, and whelp his heirs. "Safe" added fuel to that speculation when Daddy Tam brushed off any notion of Rive
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CAPTAIN wrote:
How in the world could two guys, on the brink of death be discussing the finer points of sleeping with someone's wife? They reminded me of all the coffee shop chats Jerry and George had over the years. This is MEANT to be funny, and shocking at the same time.
Yeah.
Right.
It was "funny", wasn't it?
God.
How do people even find this place when they don't understand the ruttin show???
It wasn't funny, Mr Captain.
It wasn't even meant to be funny.
Mal didn't want Wash to BREAK- so he made him angry!!!
Angry??!!
You understand?
Not Funny.
NOT funny.
Funny though is that Wash even explained it to you.
In the following scene.
God.
I'm out of words ...
Silverado.
_________________________________________________
"You had the law on you, criminals and savages... half the people on the ship have been shot or wounded including yourself, and you're harboring known fugitives."
"We're still flying."
"That's not much."
"It's enough."
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Captain you are spot on. You have just illustrated the difference between those who love Firefly and those who don't. A person who loves Firefly would find that scene funny and those who don't wouldn't. It doesn’t mean that you have a funny sense humour, it just means that appreciate the humour in the scene.
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First of all, I don't think the use of the word "tragedy" to describe this series is correct. "Tragedy" in drama means that the protagonist ultimately meets an unhappy or disastrous end. Whereas most Firefly episodes have had (what seemed to me at least) upbeat endings. Each week these characters have persevered over another potentially disastrous problem, or set of problems, and thus continue their voyage, in both their literal and figurative sense.
If you want to argue that the show is too dark, pessimistic and depressing to succeed with a mass audience in a weekly TV series, that's something else. Here's my counter-argument to that . . .
You cite two very obscure TV shows as examples that depressing drama doesn't work on TV. You say that a TV show that depicts tragedy, or a brutally dark view of human nature week after week won't work.
Have you ever watched C.S.I.? It's the number one drama on TV. Every week they show, in graphic detail, not only the results of man's inhumanity to man, but often the acts themselves via flashbacks. AND, sometimes, the people who committed the crimes also get away with it. The "heroes" of the show, the crime scene investigators, are not exactly an optimistic lot, and there is scant character development. In the two and a half years the show has been on, the audience has been given only rare insights into their personal lives, and what has been shown has usually been rather negative.
A lesser example is ER, after nearly 10 years still highly rated. Despite the fact that in every episode they depict good people meeting tragic ends, often through no fault of their own. Often a very depressing show to watch.
Perhaps most importantly, there is The X-Files. The most popular sci-fi show with a mass audience of the last 10 years. And the world depicted in that show was as dark, pessimistic and often depressing as any we‘ve mentioned. Anti-Trek shows can't succeed you say?
Personally I see parallels between Fox Mulder and Mal Reynolds. Between the former's "quest" to discover "the truth" in the face of a vast oppressive government conspiracy (his primary motivation in fact being to gain personal psychological release); and the latter's "quest" to somehow, someday achieve his personal freedom from an oppressive government, The Alliance.
On the other hand, in all the "conspiracy" episodes of the X-Files, Mulder very rarely ever managed to thwart The Conspiracy. He almost always walked away emptyhanded, no closer to exposing "the truth" than ever. The conspiracy bad guys often got away, and when they didn't, they were usually done in by their own people, in order to put Mulder further off their trail. Pretty bleak drama.
While on Firefly, Mal and the crew, in most episodes, manage to not only overcome (if only temporarily) their foes, but also usually to acquire the money or valuable cargo that they wanted.
Ultimately however it's a matter of perception:
Quote:If this is what you see when you watch Firefly, well, then that's what you see. But it's not what I see when I watch Firefly. I see a show that skillfully mixes a wealth of elements - character drama, comedy, suspense, action, sci-fi, and a bit of sex and romance - in a very entertaining way.
. . . the show itself was almost unbearably dark at times. All too often, in fact . . . a universe in which no human being seems capable of ordinary decency . . . without at least some glimmer of hope it's unreasonable to ask a mass audience to tune into this despair-fest week after week . . . "Firefly" offered us a dark dystopian view not only of a horrific future, but of human nature that proved so depressing it pretty well killed the show's prospects right at the start.
One final point. Supposing for the sake of argument that you're correct - one still cannot say that Firefly "failed" because it was too dark, pessimistic and depressing for a mass audience. One cannot say this because the overwhelming majority of the mass audience has never seen Firefly. They didn't reject it. They simply never wat
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Tragedy doesn't work week in and week out?
Have ya heard of a show called "24"? Last season though the hero won the day and defeated the villans he suffered the worst personal defeat a man can suffer, the loss of his spouse. And the series did it in such a fashion, that I as a member of the audience felt his loss.
Though this series, Firefly, has drama and tragedy, it also has humor, friendship, and love. Firefly is probably the most all around complete show on television without the contrived humor of some comedy series and soapbox sermons of dramas.
The underlying theme of Firefly is "No matter what happens, maintain a stiff upper lip and keep on flying" which is a truism that is worthwhile to uphold.
All I have to say to a critique that "Firefly" is too negative is: Share the wealth. Pass out some of those rose colored glasses that you wear.
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ok, this has nada to do with anything, but I just stumbled into this site, as a fan who is very disappointed that the show is cancled (why are all of the shows I like cancled???) I've been looking at some of the back posts, and I have to ask, how were you guys fans back in may 02, before air??? just wondering...diz
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