Society is not the government, or the nation

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 14, 2026 15:10
VIEWED: 8615
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SIGNYM

Sunday, January 17, 2016 10:29 PM

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So... American values are about profit/pillage, hegemony, and genocide?- SIGNY

If it was good enough for slaveholders Washington and Jefferson, the two richest Presidents of all times, it should be good enough for you.
www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2015/02/22/247-wall-st-richest-p
residents/23484127/

It is so refreshing to discuss with someone who isn't completely mesmerized by that narrative of the Noble Founding Father!

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The little old ladies in my family talk about the energy and purpose of their life during WWII compared to the dullness of the 30s. They didn't go into combat yet life was filled with energy, even following the war. But a little at time the values of business came back into control of everything. By the time of Carter or Reagan (the old ladies argue about which one) it felt like being in the 1930s. There was far more money, but everything was again ruled by the almighty dollar.

I thought money and survival were the entire point of Malcolm Reynolds' existence. Then River aimed a loaded gun at Mal's face, reawakening him to a bigger universe that he had stopped caring about. ... Before that gun in the face, Mal was exclusively about money and surviving – and a little sex with Nandi, the doomed hooker. Mal had been ranging across a vast universe and yet the total purpose of his life was at the same level as an amoeba. He was microscopically small minded. Even with a gun in his face, River had to cock the hammer on the pistol to get Mal to stop talking long enough to hear River's goal, which was much bigger than money or survival, alcohol or sex.

River only had to say a word and Mal got the point. Mal's a very fast thinker when he is forced to be. At gunpoint. That's why he was fun to watch.

For most people there is no River in their life to explain with a gun to their heads the bigger purpose in life than money. They will be little old ladies

or wizened old guys ...

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before faintly sensing the point Mal clearly saw after one word from River. But they could understand while young.
Which American businesses serve a bigger purpose than moneymaking? I know they are out there, but few and far between.

There are? I know none. The definitional purpose of a business, in American law, is to make a profit. Anything else in a non-profit or a foundation or a charity or a scam.

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Trump is a fat sack of $100

$1,000,000 correction

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bills walking upright. Trump is richer than all the Powerball Lottery winners from this year and last. He is far richer than Washington and Jefferson, the previously richest Presidents. He is the personification of money glorified. And he has a realistic chance to be President, which is a sad thing to say about Americans' values and purpose.
www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/01/donald-trump-mediocre-businessm
an
America doesn't have to be this way.

I have not got to the end of my thinking about Trump. In fact, I've kind of avoided him. He definitely knows how to generate publicity! He's very adept in the reality-TV culture that too many of us seem to accept as real. But there is one GOOD thing to say about Trump being extremely wealthy - HE IS NOT ABOUT TO BE BOUGHT OFF, LIKE OBAMA, HILLARY, GEORGE, BILL, AND JOHN (KERRY).

His business contacts with the Wall Street and CIA/NSA - especially the dark CIA/NSA - seem to be nil (unlike H Ross Perot and the Bush family.) He has no immediate connection to DC, which, in my book, is a big plus. His comments on Russia and on Syrian immigration (and immigration in general) make sense to me. I would have to look into his business contacts - where he makes his money, what shady business he's done - to get a better sense of where he's going.

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

SECOND

Monday, January 18, 2016 3:51 AM

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Which American businesses serve a bigger purpose than moneymaking? I know they are out there, but few and far between.
There are? I know none. The definitional purpose of a business, in American law, is to make a profit. Anything else in a non-profit or a foundation or a charity or a scam.
. . .
I have not got to the end of my thinking about Trump.

I admire Google for the self-driving car. It may never make money. That is why Google calls it a Moonshot. www.google.com/selfdrivingcar/

Then there is SpaceX, because it's Space Rockets!

Trump says he's a winner and you're a loser. Crassness is not Presidential. “I have great relationship with God.” When Trump calls, God always answers the phone because, you know, it's Trump! the greatest human God ever created!

SIGNYM

Monday, January 18, 2016 9:53 PM

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“I have great relationship with God.” When Trump calls, God always answers the phone because, you know, it's Trump! the greatest human God ever created!

That's not what he said. You're misrepresenting him. Listen again.

I DID listen, and to tell you the truth, I'm not hearing anything in that statement by Trump that I wouldn't hear from ANY candidate who is appealing to evangelicals. Don't ALL evangelicals claim a special relationship with god? Isn't that how evangelicals differ from Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, and Methodists- they have a personal relationship with God?

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But for different reasons, I DID sharpen my thoughts on how I would be evaluating the candidates.

As you - and probably everyone else here knows by now- I'm critical of Obama. Hillary too, btw. Also Bush, Bill Clinton, and Bush before him.

From my POV, Obama has represented every entity EXCEPT the American middle class. He's:

Fed the banks ($17 trillion by some accounts)
Coddled the pharmas (Obamacare doesn't shop for best prices, or control Rx costs)
Loosed the hounds of the military/ industrial/ spy complex,
Funded, armed, trained, and provided air and political cover for jihadists in the ME
Destabilized or destroyed more nations than Bush (Count 'em up.)
Signed on to universal bank bail-ins (at the G20 in Australia)

Worse, he's STILL pushing for the TPP and the TTIP.

I used to think of his anti-American actions as raisins in a bowl of oatmeal: Individual actions presented to him, or forced on him, while he's playing golf or making speeches or hoping for better days or otherwise waffling, but that these anti-American actions weren't really HIS plan - and perhaps not even "a" plan - but simply opportunistic actions foisted on him by the various powerful deep state interests which are in a complex competitive-cooperative relationship with each other.

But them someone that I know said something like

Obama is busy imploding the American state ... or words to that effect ... and it came to me that is EXACTLY the outcome of Obama's decisions. And not only that, it might not be accidental or opportunistic, but purposeful. That Obama may not simply be lacking in any strong loyalty to the American citizen, or "triangulating" between his self interest and his ability to get away with it, he may actually have very pointed loyalties elsewhere.

There is Obama ... and Merkel too, by the way ... busy spreading their respective nations' legs economically, militarily, financially, and culturally, representing everyone except their citizens. And you might then logically ask: IF they're not representing their citizens, WHO are they representing? Immigrants and refugees? (Which BTW their own policies created.) Banks?

If they had any loyalty at all to their own nations, they wouldn't be doing 90% of what they're currently doing. So I think we can rule out the idea that they have their citizens in mind. The question is whether or not they're -literally- on the other side: Are they whittling away their nations' sovereignty on purpose, or are they just being played by appeals to their greed and vanity?

Anyway, what I'll be looking for is whether candidates are willing to step up in favor of American sovereignty - laws protecting our environment etc- or are they willing to cede it to some international business court, adjudicating ONLY on the terms of the "free trade" deals that were signed?

I already know about Rand Paul, he's a staunch supporter of America. But he's not even close to being a nominee.
I already know about Hillary, she's a weasly traitor.

I don't know about Bernie, and I don't know about Trump, but I'm going to find out: where do their loyalties lie?

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

SECOND

Tuesday, January 19, 2016 2:21 AM

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

. . . where do their loyalties lie?

I think loyalty has nothing to do with their performance. I think the rich and powerful, The Powers That Be, or the Top 1%, move society forward at a pace slow and comfortable enough for themselves. Some would move so slowly that they are actually going backwards, rather than forward. Each of them would move at a different pace, but it is always the pace they are comfortable with. Since this is MLK Day, let's quote LBJ: “What is that goddamned nigger preacher doing to me?” Johnson reportedly remarked after the speech. “We gave him the Civil Rights Act of 1964, we gave him the Voting Rights Act of 1965, we gave him the War on Poverty. What more does he want?”
https://theintercept.com/2016/01/18/martin-luther-king-jr-celebrations
-overlook-his-critiques-of-capitalism-and-militarism/

The Powers That Be are at the tip of the pyramid. The pyramid below applies to the entire world. I know tip top people claim they don't have the power to move any faster, but that's not true. The tip top doesn't want those lower down to be applying pressure on their betters. What safer and more inexpensive way to stall than to lie about your power?

www.credit-suisse.com/us/en/about-us/research/research-institute/publi
cations.html

www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=1328

SECOND

Tuesday, January 19, 2016 5:38 PM

When you take a guy like Trump into your bed (or, if you prefer a different analogy, get a blood transfusion from him) because of his sweet words, you will get more than words from him. Trump has a social disease. Christians are cheering for him although he does not worship their God. His is Money.

Nobody with a brain has ever believed that Donald Trump is a Christian in any serious sense. I am not talking about his gambling casinos or broken marriages or strategic bankruptcies to cheat his associates or even his mean spirit. I don't think he could pass a third-grade test of Bible knowledge. But yesterday's gaffe in quoting 2 Corinthians 3:17, as trivial as it seems, suggests more: that he literally has paid no attention to Christianity at all. In fact, given how hard that is in a country as awash in religious references as the United States, it suggests much more: Donald Trump has spent most of his life actively trying to avoid religion as completely as possible. And yet, apparently evangelicals love him anyway. Their judgment is bad about who gets into their bed (or blood).
www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/01/two-corinthians-walk-bar

SECOND

Tuesday, January 19, 2016 8:09 PM

Trump is a monotheist. I believe the "christians" with a little c, unlike him, are polytheistic worshipers of Christ and Money. The "christians" and Trump share a god.

www.houstonchronicle.com/author/nick-anderson/

SECOND

Wednesday, January 20, 2016 10:45 PM

So, what ARE "American values"? asked Signym, who answered the question with a list of possible attributes. I think it's always been simpler than a long list: American values are only about accumulating wealth and appearing to be puritanical. American values always have been only those two things.

Trump is the perfect example of half those values. He's about wealth. Ted Cruz is the other half. He's the Puritan. I'm convinced that both these values are the foundations going all the way back to before there was a USA.

Here's a Puritan in action: Ted Cruz was solicitor general of Texas. In 1997, Michael Wayne Haley was arrested after stealing a calculator from Walmart. This was a crime that merited a maximum two-year prison term. But prosecutors incorrectly applied a habitual offender law. Neither the judge nor the defense lawyer caught the error and Haley was sentenced to 16 years.

Once the error was discovered, instead of just letting Haley go for time served, Cruz took the case to the Supreme Court to keep Haley in prison for the full 16 years.
www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/11/lazarus.dretke/

Some of the justices made clear they found Cruz’s suggestion that Haley return to jail unacceptable. “Is there some rule that you can't confess error in your state?” Justice Anthony Kennedy asked. Yes is clearly Ted Cruz's answer.
www.texastribune.org/2012/07/23/cruz-supreme-court-work-heart-campaign/

The case reveals something interesting about Cruz’s character and Americans in general. In his career and public presentation Cruz is a stranger to most of what would generally be considered the Christian virtues: humility, mercy, compassion and grace. Ted Cruz is running strongly among evangelical voters, especially in Iowa. Cruz’s behavior in the Haley case is almost the dictionary definition of pharisaism: an overzealous application of the letter of the law in a way that violates the spirit of the law, as well as fairness and mercy.

Cruz's speeches are marked by a long list of enemies, and vows to crush, shred, destroy, bomb them. Those are true American values. America built its success on those values. If it is not working for America now, it is because the world changed, not because American values changed.

WISHIMAY

Thursday, January 21, 2016 7:53 AM

I think I'm quite possibly cabin crazy, but that's HILARIOUS to me tonight, G. Thanks!

SIGNYM

Friday, January 22, 2016 5:44 PM

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Ba...

First of all, it's "Bah", not "Ba". Even in Canada and the UK, where the word "bah" originated. "Ba" is what sheep do.

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... humbug. You lose when you try and reduce the actions and beliefs of 300,000,000 people to 2 things or try and do a list "American Values." That so 90's.

We have many attributes, and many even seem in direct opposition.

Well then, that's the problem right there: nothing ties people together. Under stress, that will fail.

I know you have a serious grotch against me, and nothing I say will make a difference (to you), but maybe you'll take heed of a fellow Canadian:

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The underlying law of corporate globalization its media presentation is undeniable, but taboo to name. Whatever stands against the transnational corporate market as the cosmic engine of humanity’s well-being is anathematized and annihilated in one nation after another. The methods range from bombing social infrastructures in Slavic and Arab societies to silencing and reversing undeniable facts exposing the lies of the system. No alternative to feeding resources into the life-blind growth juggernaut has arisen at a productive level. The media repel any real economic reform as unthinkable.

In this borderless chaos of corporate globalization which now strips even the social infrastructures of the European Union to pay big banks and dispossess workers, the mass media select out whatever joins the dots of the cumulative catastrophe unfolding on both social and ecological planes. No real threat to collective life security computes except constructed enemies who mutate from one Orwellian hate object to the next. The collective life capital on which everyone’s continued breathing, water, nutrition, biodiverse surroundings, social security and knowledge depend are not even conceived.

... Perhaps the worst problem of this system has been the way in which the lives of the younger generations have been sacrificed beneath notice. There is no private profit in enabling the young to understand and flourish as human beings. But there is ever more profit in exploiting the young’s increasing market demand as well as cheap labor. The vast and growing global businesses of junk foods, violence entertainment, and selfie-chatter have one thing in common. They depend on the young as unthinking spenders. In this way the next generations are made pervasively addictive consumers degrading human life capacities the more corporate commodities are consumed by them. Maximizing corporate sales and ‘investor’ profits is the sole value criterion. Even infants in the crib are consciously conditioned into this expanding addictive-junk cycle as “job-creating growth”.

... A deep core of our problem is that the US has in fact no collective ... interest or consciousness in its constitution, its dominant social sciences, its actionable laws, or its white fundamentalist religions. Western market and political doctrine repudiate collective consciousness in principle. Only self-maximizing atomic individuals with no binding life community alone exist to this ruling mind-set. Self-serving corporations and consumers compete for survival according to market rules whose algebra is life-blind. Endless “trade agreements” override any society’s collective laws if they reduce expected profits to private transnational money sequences. The Trans-Pacific Partnership is the latest extension of this sociopath metaphysics built into the ruling market paradigm.- John McMurtry, Fellow of the Royal Society of Canada

There's a world BEYOND what you know. I point to something which has existed for millenia since the beginning of history: the basis of human survival and the cornerstone of human progress, which is called "society" and your response is "Huh?"

Yanno, it used to be that "liberals" used to talk and write about creating a better society. Now, all liberals do is bitch about Russia.

SIGNYM

Friday, January 22, 2016 6:14 PM

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No, sorry, you are looking to the past for ways to live in the future.

No, I'm looking for lessons in the past about how to live in the future. Maybe even things to avoid. Yanno, the person who refuses to learn from experience is the person who's incapable of learning. And the person who learns is the person who examines what happened in the past and derives the fundamental drivers behind events, and decides whether those conditions should be reproduced or not. That is the basis of learning, and of science.

A person who is unwilling - or incapable- of examining the past is incapable of learning. That person seems to be ... you.

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The future is about Change.

Yes, it is. Change that you're not prepared for.

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It's up to you: Change or it will Change you. Or you will just be heard shouting as you spin down the drain of history.

No, it's about EVERYBODY. Only in cartoons can a single person effect historical change. Do you live in a cartoon???

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The US - most modern nations - are made of many micro societies, and they can work and function just fine together

The US- and ALL nations, modern or not- live in a real physical world, no matter how many people stroke each others' backs and tell each other that they're great. Can they work and function when the drought doesn't end? When the fish are gone? When everyone is poor and nobody has the agency to make a living for themselves?

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as long as there are equitable laws in place and a fair system of applying them.

And that is THE POINT of this thread- ya maroon!

WHAT IS "FAIR"?
What is "equitable"?
WHAT KIND DO SOCIETY DO WE WANT?
My god, it's like talking to a goldfish. Are you incapable of keeping more than one thought in your head for more than three seconds at a time?

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It's still a work in progress - always will be. Anything man creates will likely be flawed and will always need care and attention. If you can't handle the imperfections or the actual, honest work (not bitching on a forum) it takes to maintain - go be a hermit.

It seems to me that the person who can't handle imperfections is YOU. Because any time anyone points out that - HEY! Things aren't perfect! There are problems! - you go all fucking haywire.

DOOD! OF COURSE it's a work in progress! OF COURSE it needs to change. WHAT SHOULD IT CHANGE TO? The FIRST thing that needs to happen is that people (OH, BTW dearie, that means you) need to do is think. Is that possible, do you suppose?

That's the point of the thread. But apparently, you can't get past that first concept. You're still stuck in cartoons!

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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