Real World Event Discussions

Turkish F-16 shoots down Russian aircraft

POSTED BY: JAYNEZTOWN
UPDATED: Monday, June 2, 2025 14:59
VIEWED: 8210
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SIGNYM

Thursday, November 26, 2015 10:44 PM

There's nothing quite like shooting at ejected pilots as they float down helplessly ....

Allahu Akbar!

In the Now claims that one of the "Turkmen" in Syria (interviewed by CNN and FOX News, as you can see from the microphones) is actually the son of a Turkish mayor

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

THGRRI

Friday, November 27, 2015 1:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
Assad is near about where Saddam was.

Long past it, I would say. Certainly in terms of civilians killed.

Quote:
Did the Russian jets' flight paths really NEED to loop that far north so close to Turkey.

This is the thing, the whole thing is really arrogant and provocative to Turkey. Bombing ethnic Turks, armed groups that Turkey is supporting, right on the edge of the Turkish border? When Turkey is a NATO state and has a nationalist president? This was complete idiocy from the Russians, and they ignored all the warnings.

Quote:
they are inadvertently trying to go after IS; as asshole as Assad is, he's against IS.

Actually it's complicated. IS has been a boon for Assad, as everyone is terrified of removing him now. There are plenty of reports that Assad has worked with IS, bought oil/gas off them, had truces with them while he's focussed on attacking the other rebels... At best IS are his 'convenient' enemies, at worst they have an ongoing, cooperative relationship. Look at where Assad's main military offensives are, and where Russian planes are bombing - are they targeted against IS areas? The hell they are. They're against the FSA and other anti-Assad rebels.

It's not personal. It's just war.

Hey KPO, It's nice to have some others here who are paying attention to what is going on. Most don't and that is why you just had to post what you did. If those posting here do not already know what is contained in your post, then they are ignorant of the facts and should spend a bit more time researching this.

RAHLMACLAREN

Friday, November 27, 2015 2:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Thanks for all of this. I think your suggestions are great... *if* we were the only ones involved and no one else would do anything crazy! But, it's the Middle East, reminds me a little of this:

https://youtube/F2GIirKPy6g

It's fun to try and assign real people to some of the characters. Oil might be the beer. Assad? Putin? Obama?

Chuckly funny!

Oh, if only everyone involved in the Mideast was armed with only sugar glass beer bottles and breakaway furniture.

Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

1KIKI

Saturday, November 28, 2015 2:05 PM

I've been trying to figure out what makes sense.

Turkey's original claims were that it warned the Russian jet 10 times in 5 minutes (5 minutes was a detail added 2 days later, but I'll include it here) by radio before shooting it down.

I've done some reading and the things I've found out are that before you consider shooting down a plane it must pose a threat. The protocol is to warn off the plane by radio, then establish visual contact in case radio communication is broken, and then either fire a warning shot across the flight path OR launch warning flares from the ground.

Russia filed the Su-24's flight plan with the US, and it obviously didn't pose a threat to Turkey.

Regarding the supposed incursion, though it's extremely small, near the Mediterranean end of the Turkey/ Syrian border is a small blip, that I estimated from this map is roughly 2 - 3km (1.2 - 1.8 miles) across. It's that blip that Turkey claimed Syria 'invaded'. This map illustrates the minuscule scale of the alleged airspace incursion.

And here it is, blown up, where (according to Turkey), the claimed incursion flight path is about 2 miles wide.

The maximum speed of an Su-24 is 815 mph https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-24. Assuming it was flying at half speed, according to Turkey's claims the Su-24 spent a maximum of 18 seconds in Turkey's airspace (if the Su-24 was going at top speed it would have been 9 seconds).

Turkey claims it warned the Su-24 10 times in 5 minutes. 5 minutes at half-speed is 33 miles (and at top speed is 66 miles). Where in the flight path that TURKEY claimed was the jet 33 (or 66) miles outside of Syrian territory and heading toward it? The maximum distance away from Turkey's territory that TURKEY claimed the jet was, was a bit over 6 miles.

Did Turkey warn the jet to stay out of it's territory 10 times over 5 minutes? I don't see how. The maximum time the jet could have been moving toward Turkey's territory and then over it is roughly 1 minute, 12 seconds. Compare that to the claim of 5 minutes.

The next part of the story was that Turkey's independent fighters shot the pilot who had ejected from a disabled aircraft and was in the process of parachuting back to earth. That's not something I would have advertised, as it's a war crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_parachutists They also admitted killing one of the crew of the rescue helicopter, that eventually did pick up the navigator. I haven't looked it up specifically, but I imagine it's a war crime too, as the helicopter is - pretty obviously - not a troop-carrying aircraft.

Until the navigator was rescued, there was no one to tell the other side of the story regarding radio warnings, visual contact, or other warning signals - ie, the side of the story that that didn't happen. Honestly - the only reason I can imagine the Turkeys persistently, repeatedly tried so HARD to kill the pilot and navigator BOTH is that dead men tell no tales. They didn't want another story out there.

MEANWHILE - as always, there's no evidence for any of Turkey's claims. The Turkeys released a recording that they CLAIMED was made at the time, but with no time-stamp or other corroborating evidence. And, JUST LIKE MH17, the US jumped in right away to say 'we know what the Turkeys claim is true!' but then provided zero - nada, zilch, zip, goose-egg - evidence. And since then - just like MH17 - the US has been backing down from the claim, saying it's between Russia and Turkey to figure out what happened.

You know, with GPS satellites, and aerial surveying, a lot of the conflicting claims, like where the Russian plane came down, can be easily resolved. But just like Kiev's claims t

1KIKI

Sunday, November 29, 2015 4:05 AM

So, I've been thinking about this some more.

What Germany should have learned, what Europe should have learned, what Turkey should have learned after Ukraine, is that the US is not your friend.

What happened in Ukraine? The disgruntled oligarchs who were out of the gravy train, and the Nazis, were encouraged to find common cause and stage a coup. The US was going to be their friend, their ally, their support. It was going to make it all turned out all right. And what did the US want? Cover (with plausible deniability) to embroil Russia in a war. What the US wanted out of Ukraine had nothing to do with Ukraine at all. It was all about Russia. (As our local propagandists so helpfully focus on. So they ARE good for something after all!)
And when it all went - sideways - and Ukraine became embroiled in a messy civil war, and the economy fell apart, and the oligarchs got control of a lot of nothing, and Russia FINALLY cut off the gas for non-payment --- what did the US do then? Give food aid? Shelter aid? Medical aid? Provide energy resources? Forgive the loans? No. It extended the IMF loan to further bleed the country dry - a la Greece - and quietly slunk away. Our work here, the US said, is done. Because Ukraine never needed to be a 'successful' country to serve the US purpose.

As for Germany - Merkel was always bucking the BUSINESS community over the sanctions, because Germany had a robust trade with Russia. And sanctions were always going to hurt Germany more than they hurt Russia due simply to the relative size of their economies and resources. Germany is now facing the loss of an additional 300,000 jobs by extending the sanctions, along with the ones they've already lost.
And, as far as I can tell, the only reason for Germany to accept the refugees in consideration of Turkey would have been at the insistence of the US. And that, at this point, was political suicide for Merkel.
But the German economy or the political fortunes of Merkel were never a consideration for the US in its covert war against Russia.

So you have to wonder, (at least, I do), why in god's name would Turkey want to pick a fight with Russia? Yanno, look at the two: Turkey v Russia. It wouldn't even be a fair fight. I wonder what the US said to Turkey. We have your back? We're behind you all the way?
It reminds me of a card, where there's crusaders on horseback in a mass change, except one is way, way, waaaay out in front, and the rest are tiny specks in the background. And the one in front, his thought balloon says "I'm fucked".
When the US says they're behind you all the way you probably need to be asking just how FAR behind that would be.

All this adds up to the US using its dupes to engage in proxy anti-Russia warfare.

What a stupid thing to do. What an even stupider thing to agree to.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

ELVISCHRIST

Sunday, November 29, 2015 8:28 AM

In Russian Thanksgiving

Turkey shoots YOU!

SIGNYM

Sunday, November 29, 2015 11:43 PM

Sultan Erdogan jails three journalists and another is killed on live TV while they are reporting on Turkey's governmental support of ISIL.

Meanwhile, ISIL oil is being shipped thru Turkey and being laundered in ship-to-ship offshore transfers, or by Israel.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-28/isis-oil-trade-full-frontal-r
aqqas-rockefellers-bilal-erdogan-krg-crude-and-israel-c

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

1KIKI

Monday, November 30, 2015 1:39 AM

You two must WANT Russia to fail in its effort to destroy a barbarous group of people who want to set up a brutal, non-democratically-elected sharia government.

You two must be supporting the ISIS coup.

Duly noted.

Don't forget to send ISIS money and make it official. Because, having Russia lose and ISIS win - heh hehee! that would be so funny! And also, apparently, you're all for it.

Am I right?

;)

1KIKI

Monday, November 30, 2015 3:45 AM

Russian pilot's body recovered from Syria.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/11/30/uk-mideast-crisis-turkey-russ
ia-pilot-idUKKBN0TI08220151130

Turkey recovered the body of a Russian pilot from northern Syria and presented it to Russian diplomats on Sunday, five days after shooting down his warplane in an incident that wrecked relations between two of the main powers involved in Syria's war.

1KIKI

Monday, November 30, 2015 3:50 AM

it was extremely unlikely they issued ten warnings in five minutes

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/turkey-shoots-down-russian-p
lane-astrophysicists-say-both-official-accounts-are-partially-a6752741.html

Turkey said the plane was in their airspace for 17 seconds but the physicists concluded that when travelling at a speed of 980 km/h (609 m/h) the plane would have crossed over in just seven seconds.

From this they said it was extremely unlikely they issued ten warnings in five minutes because the plane travelling at that speed could cross 80km (50m) in 80 seconds.

They said: “How could the Turkish airforce predict that the Russian jets were about to enter Turkish airspace?

“Military jets are very agile, and in theory the Russian jets could have turned at the last moment to avoid Turkish airspace.

“The warnings issued to the Russian pilots were mere speculation at the moment they were made.”

But they don’t think Russian authorities are being entirely honest either.

Russia has claimed the plane made a 90 degree turn after it was hit and it was actively trying to avoid Turkish airspace.

They explained that at that speed: “A change of course of 90 degrees can only be achieved with an object that’s many times heavier or faster than the jet.”

They concluded: “According to our calculations, it is clear that both the story of Turkey and Russia should be taken with a grain of salt.

“Estimates limit the violation of Turkish airspace to a maximum of 10s. Russia's claims not correspond to the laws of mechanics.”