Maybe us Libertarians should vote for Bush?

POSTED BY: CrevanReaver
UPDATED: Monday, July 7, 2025 16:53
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CREVANREAVER

Thursday, October 28, 2004 6:14 PM

As a pretty defiant libertarian I have been really pissed off at many of President Bush's policies and until a few days ago had made up my mind to vote for Michael Badnarik, the Libertarian Party's candidate. However, over the past couple of days I've been really thinking about the issues and where Bush and Kerry stand in comparison to my own political views and I realized something. I'm Anybody But Kerry. John Kerry is a big government near-socialist. If he were elected he would push the federal government on the American people. He would create various programs with the taxpayers' money and continuously spend, spend, spend and do some more spending. And of course he has talked about expanding the military budget even more.

With all of this, Kerry's entire plan to pay for it is by simply raising taxes on the "rich". That socialistic idea wouldn't even work. Not that many people even make more than 200 grand a year anyway. Eventually he would have to raise taxes on the middle class.

I've already posted other problems I have with Kerry on another thread.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=7603

Bush may have failed on many things, but he is not all bad. I think the war in Iraq was a big mistake, however I am not one of those people that think he lied. The president had numerous sources telling him there were WMDs: George Tenet's CIA, Vladimir Putin, British Intelligence, the UN, Bill Clinton, and Saddam Hussein's suspicious behavior. If you read Bob Woodward's book Plan of Attack, you'll learn that Bush was actually really reticient about going to war, however Tenet said to him about Iraq possessing WMDs, "It's a slam dunk."

As I've written before, after so much pressure, he had to believe that Iraq was an imminent threat.

Kerry says he still would have voted to go to war with Iraq in October of 2002 even if he knew everything he knows now, proving him to be an enormous panderer.

Bush economic policy is actually rather smart. After the monstrous attack on America the economy could have took such a nose-dive to take us in a second Depression. But that didn't happen, and it was because of the Bush tax cuts. Many people who received money back because of the tax cuts went out and create businesses and hired people, therefore creating new jobs. People also feel safer if they have more of their own hard earned money. I know the socialists and communists don't like to hear it, but the wealthy are the ones driving the economy.

One million jobs were lost in America within three months of September 11 and many more within the following twelve months. Yet Bush has gotten most of those back. We talk about jobs being lost during Bush's first three year, but imagine how low the unemployment rate would be if 911 never happened. I think the president did an impressive job with that.

It seems like almost everyone is saying this is the most important election in our lives and that maybe right. With so much at stake I don't know if I could risk a Kerry Administration. So I'm giving a lot of thought about voting for Bush.

Once thing is certain though, I definately won't vote for John Kerry.

If someone could come up with reasons for me to stay in the Badnarik camp, please post them on this thread. And if you have any good reasons a libertarian should vote for President Bush post those as well.

SHUTE2KILL

Thursday, October 28, 2004 7:27 PM

Normally I prefer to stay out of political debates. I'm registered as an independant voter, as both of the major parties and a few of the minor ones all have positions that I support, so for the most part I keep my nose out of political discussions. But I felt I needed to respond to CrevanReaver for some reason.

You asked for a reason to vote for either Badnarik or Bush. Your primary concern seem to be taxes and big government. I would like to point out that the president has very little to do with either of those things. Yes, he can champion his own agenda, and yes it is the president who finally signs the bill, but it is CONGRESS, not the president, who has the power to raise/lower taxes and control the size of government.

Right now, the congress is controlled by conservative republicans. Based on the polls I've seen, that is not likely to change on Tuesday. Even if a liberal candidate like Kerry or Nader is elected, they will be greatly restrained by a conservative congress.

One thing that the president CAN do is influence world opinion of the US. At this Bush has failed in my opinion. Even before 9-11, he pulled the US out of global treaties and upset several of our key allies. On 9-12 the entire world (even Iran and Lybia) expressed their support for America. Today that good will is gone because of Bush's policies.

I agree with your statements about the wealthy driving the American economy, but America is also deeply embedded in the global economy. Our economy depends on the demand for our goods and services overseas. When the whole world is snubbing us, our economy suffers.

CrevanReaver, when you go to the polls on Tuesday to vote for people who will affect your world, make sure you consider the power of the offices you are electing. The president alone can not affect your taxes or the size of government. Know who your representatives and senators are, and what they stand for. Vote accordingly.

As for the office of the president, it seems to me that one of his most important jobs will be restoring the stature of the US in the eyes of the world. If you think that Bush can do this, vote for him. Otherwise, vote for the man you really support. Even if Kerry wins because of your vote, the economy will probably still be controled by conservatives for at least two more years. And a vote for Badnarik gives the libertarians that much more leverage in 08.

In closing, I realize that I have greatly simplified several issues for the sake of brevity. Well, like I said, I don't like to get involved in these kinds of debates.

BEENWITHAWARRIORWOMAN

Thursday, October 28, 2004 7:40 PM

Reasons not to vote Bush if you're a libertarian:
Patriot Act and Patriot II (which, by the way, has no "expiration date."
Liberal bias aside (weed out at your discretion), there is this: http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

It's a bit sensationalist, but it's accurate - there is truth to this. If you love your freedoms, Bush is not the man for the job.

GHOULMAN

Thursday, October 28, 2004 8:00 PM

... I've no idea why a Libertarian would vote for Bush. Frankly, I can't believe one would. Reasons.

BIKISDAD

Thursday, October 28, 2004 9:52 PM

I already did as you are suggesting and voted for Bush (by absentee ballot). However, as usual, that was just a choice of the lesser of two evils that the two main parties always seem to give us. Let's face it, we Libertarians are always screwed no matter which party is in power. The Demoncrats always take away our economic freedoms (taxes, taxes, and more taxes) and the Republicans take away our civil rights (see Patriot Act reference, above).

As long as these two parties are in power, we will continue to lose our various freedoms.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

HEB

Thursday, October 28, 2004 10:41 PM

I know which I'd prefer to lose. At least you know part of the taxes are going to help people.

Quote:
Originally posted by bikisdad:
I already did as you are suggesting and voted for Bush (by absentee ballot). However, as usual, that was just a choice of the lesser of two evils that the two main parties always seem to give us. Let's face it, we Libertarians are always screwed no matter which party is in power. The Demoncrats always take away our economic freedoms (taxes, taxes, and more taxes) and the Republicans take away our civil rights (see Patriot Act reference, above).

As long as these two parties are in power, we will continue to lose our various freedoms.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

...................
Well, my sister's a ship... we had a
complicated childhood
.................
I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.

RANGRBOB

Thursday, October 28, 2004 11:12 PM

I may be looking at this all the wrong way but here is my opinion. I have a good reason for a Libertarian to vote for Kerry. Just as was said in a few posts above the President can screem till he is blue in the face but nothing will happen unless he controls the votes in congress. Personally I believe that both main parties are big government, big spending, and big jerks. The only time I've ever seen progress made in this country is when the parties are kept at each others throats. If you look back at the past decade the best time we had when was Clinton was president and the republicans had control of congress. During that time they were focusing on each other and leaving us alone. So vote for Kerry but keep Republicans in congress.

CREVANREAVER

Thursday, October 28, 2004 11:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rangrbob:
If you look back at the past decade the best time we had when was Clinton was president...

Bullshit, Clinton murdered innocent people in Waco and overall he had no respect for the second amendment.

P.S. Fuck Janet Reno!

TIGER

Thursday, October 28, 2004 11:51 PM

Don't give in to the pressure; don't let the overwhelming odds against libertarians get you down. Libertarians won't win this election - or the next, or the next. But what if everyone who believes in libertarian values actually voted for the Libertarian? He/she might get 5-6% of the vote. Suddenly they would garner national attention. Big ticket interviews, high profile stories on major news outlets, they may even be allowed into the debates (which would be huge). The message would get out to more people, and the more who know about the libertarians, the more will vote for them. Maybe in the election after that, they'd get 10-15%, then 20% the next etc. etc. It's even possible the two major parties would start to adopt libertarian positions to keep voters. That can only be good.

There is no "lesser of two evils" in this election. Both Kerry and Bush voted for/authorized war in Iraq. Both have said they will stay there if elected. Both talk about tax cuts for the middle class, but I doubt either will really come through. Even the $600 we got from Bush was just a token of the tens of thousands we all pay each year. Both spent/authorized MASSIVE dollars in gov't healthcare programs, military expansion, and law enforcement expansion, including the Patriot Act. Both have voted for/authorized huge, intrusive and expensive new regulations on business. Both have voted for/authorized stifling international free trade. They differ only on small issues like whether the gov't should spend X dollars on stem cell research or X +10 dollars.

My plan is to always vote Libertarian and be patient. Even if we don't get more liberty in my lifetime, I'll sleep a little more soundly knowing that I didn't add to the evils of the world.

JASONZZZ

Thursday, October 28, 2004 11:54 PM

None of this matters with the electoral college system. Only a very few states actually split their electoral college votes, the greater majority are all winner take all.

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