Real World Event Discussions

Anti Intellectualism is Killing America

POSTED BY: Magonsdaughter
UPDATED: Monday, July 13, 2026 01:26
VIEWED: 26774
PAGE 18 of 21

1KIKI

Tuesday, August 18, 2015 12:47 AM

Magon's

I don't believe that people are logical at our core. Even the impulse to reform is the product of some felt value.

AFAIK people think by heuristics, which are mental shortcuts. And then we have deeply embedded drives and responses which direct our behavior without us even knowing it.

So the problem as I see it is not that we're insufficiently intellectual, it's that we can't examine our currently held paradigms, logical or not, and ask - is this working? And - what do we want instead?

I believe we have a few drives.

One is to identify with a group. Even a died-in-the-wool libertarian like SergeantX, when pressed, would admit a greater identity with the people in his neighborhood than strangers in Africa. And if you select one group over another, than you have a group identity.

We have a drive to corner easily dominated resources, like Goodall's chimps and Kenya's baboons. And we see resource problems as human competition, rather than an imbalance susceptible to other solutions.

We have a drive to procreate more under threat.

We maximize our acquisitions and minimize our efforts, far beyond what's necessary, or healthful.

We accept what we're told about the world, which we then adhere to as our reality - even when it fails to conform to observation.

We trade in abstractions as if they were real.

Anyway, it's my belief - without any proof I might add - that these things are addressable. I believe what we need to do is bring them to the fore, and ask specifically and concretely 'does this work?'. What circumstances trigger these responses? What circumstances will alleviate them?

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Tuesday, August 18, 2015 3:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

I have to disagree here. Both my husband and MIL were immigrants, and our daughter is brain-damaged, and they ALL had problems learning to read, and husband and MIL never could spell correctly. I also recall other kids in my Catholic school learning how to read, and it was a struggle. When I learned how to read, it was the phonetic method, which works well for words like cat and hat and pan, but then you get to the long "a's" and the "silent e's" and then it gets worse from there. The "SH" sound in fish is easy to explain, but how do you explain it in "action"?

Yes, teaching and literacy is a matter of time and effort balanced against resources, but if the time and effort is greater in one system than another, given equal resources you'll have less success with the more effortful system.

The one statistic that indicates this is the general scores of literacy, math, and science across the globe. ALL English-speaking nations do worse in math and science. Is it because English-speaking peoples are inherently stupid or lazy? Or is it because so much time and effort of every day is put into "I before E, except after C, or when sounding like A, as in neighbor or weigh"?

I'm not claiming that phonetic English will suddenly make people logical, but what it WILL do is make learning to read and write English a lot easier.

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

It doesn't matter whether it was a struggle or not. The end result is that you are literate - not sure about your daughter but disability would be a key reason in weston countries for not be able to read and write. The statistics still indicate clearly the nations that have high literacy rates are economically well off. They also indicate that literacy rates are high, in that there are high rates of tertiary education in the population.

So really the key questions are whether your country has a good enough school system, whether people can afford to send their kids to school and ultimately whether people can afford tertiary education.

JO753

Tuesday, August 18, 2015 9:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/is-antiintellectualism-killing-the-n
ational-conversation-20150801-gipidj.html#ixzz3j3VEPHgn]

Good article. Did Rupert Murdoch hav az big a role in dividing & stupifying the political prosess in Australia az he did here in the US?

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DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

JO753

Tuesday, August 18, 2015 9:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Magon's

I don't believe that people are logical at our core. Even the impulse to reform is the product of some felt value.

Agreed. Duznt mean the reformer iz rong.

Quote:
AFAIK people think by heuristics, which are mental shortcuts.

Not alwayz. Maybe sum peepl, maybe most, but sum peepl can occasionaly prosess information sufficiently well to make progress.

Quote:
So the problem as I see it is not that we're insufficiently intellectual, it's that we can't examine our currently held paradigms, logical or not, and ask - is this working? And - what do we want instead?

I did it. Yet you cant see it kuz uv your attachment to your "currently held paradigms".

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DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

JO753

Tuesday, August 18, 2015 9:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
He makes many claims that are on their face untrue.

I dont agree with all hiz conclusionz either, but hiz jeneral theory iz undeniable - no riting, no sivilization.

My extension uv that iz better riting, better sivilization.

All other factorz being equal, a nation that iznt hindered by a louzy spelling system will do better than wun that iz.

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DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

1KIKI

Tuesday, August 18, 2015 10:27 AM

I did it. Yet you cant see it kuz uv your attachment to your "currently held paradigms".

troll

RAHLMACLAREN

Tuesday, August 18, 2015 6:57 PM

Just out of curiosity, how does Nooalf spell 'onomatopoeia'?

Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

SIGNYM

Tuesday, August 18, 2015 7:55 PM

Quote:
It doesn't matter whether it was a struggle or not. The end result is that you are literate -

First of all, it DOES matter. For many children (and adults) for whom reading is difficult, they NEVER learn how to read, or never learn how to read WELL. IF you're spending your reading time picking through the vagaries of spelling, simply trying to identify the words ... how much of the content do you think you're going to get? How much do you think that person will be reading? Will they ever read for pleasure? Or will their difficulty with reading will be a LIFELONG BARRIER to knowledge?

And for those that DO learn how to read, the hours, days, weeks, months, and years spent on learning that particular information, what about all of the time they could have spent on OTHER things, like mapping (in our DD's case) or arithmetic?

Quote:
not sure about your daughter but disability would be a key reason in western countries for not be able to read and write.

Immigrants, especially adult immigrants, ALSO have a hard time. You yourself said that you know an immigrant - and Ethiopian woman- for whom reading and writing is impossible. Maybe it would be less impossible if it was a lot easier?

Because of our daughter, I know many disabled people, but my ENTIRE FAMILY is made of IMMIGRANTS. My dad was an immigrant, my maternal grandparents and all of their cousins and in-laws were immigrants, my husband and his entire family here are immigrants. While I know many disabled young adults, I know far more immigrants than disabled people, and I know that there are prolly at least as many immigrants as disabled. Plus, the slow readers who don't fit into either category. Its a very clear and felt issue with me, since I've witnessed it throughout my life starting with my grandmother who would read and write Polish but not English, the 10% of my classmates for whom reading was a struggle, my dad, hubby and all five of my in-laws, and our DD and her classmates. Evidence of a problem abounds.

Quote:
can afford tertiary education.

Who's talking about tertiary education? We're talking about reading and writing.

Improving the school system is a tremendous and worthwhile goal. I agree with that. Still, it would be help to make English less painful.

Quote:
The statistics still indicate clearly the nations that have high literacy rates are economically well off. They also indicate that literacy rates are high, in that there are high rates of tertiary education in the population.

Comparing education outcomes among wealthy nations is indicative of the effect of English.

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

JO753

Tuesday, August 18, 2015 11:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RahlMaclaren:
Just out of curiosity, how does Nooalf spell 'onomatopoeia'?

oNUMaTUPEU

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/onomatopoeia

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DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

JO753

Tuesday, August 18, 2015 11:47 PM

MD,

You may hav missed this:

Quote:
Suppoze the system iz so bad that it takes 50 yirz to learn how to read & rite. Do you think orally passing along information will suffise to get potential sientists and inovatorz up to speed soon enuf to take advantaj uv their most productiv yirz? (and dont forget they are spending a major chunk uv their waking owrz learning to read)

Exajerating sumthing helps to understand it better.

You are literate, so its hard to see English from the perspectiv uv a 4 yir old or an immigrant. You cant see wut a big tangled obstacle course it looks like from where they are standing.

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DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com