Only the characters are saving this show
POSTED BY: UFO
UPDATED: Saturday, November 9, 2002 02:05
VIEWED: 13407
PAGE 5 of 5
Quote:You're obviously not listening to anything anyone is saying. Delvo explained in pretty simple terms what science fiction is. You should read his response again.
Originally posted by Alternity:
The "what if" has to be something new and different--something never before experienced by humankind. The post civil war scenario was inspired by the American civil war--Joss Whedon said so himself, so that is not new.
The rest of your "what if" assertions can be summarized with "what if things never change in the future?" Again, this is by Whedon's design, but again this is not science fiction. There is nothing interesting to explore in that. There is no change. The "what if" in science fiction must explore some kind of change. If things do not change, if things stay the same, then everything will be as it is today. That's an easy premise to extrapolate; there are no interesting and different possiblilities to imagine. Firefly is not science fiction.
That's not a bad thing; it's just going to alienate viewers who are looking for science fiction.
P.S. I haven't seen "Out of Gas" yet. What I've read about it makes me think that it may have been the first episode to actually be science fiction.
roj
And you seem to have missed the point of my reply. The point was that any story at all can be broken into what you are calling "what if." ANY story, at all. The "what if" I gave are totally valid and actually summarize the theme of Firefly. Joss Whedon already pointed out that the principle theme is that human beings will not be anymore enlightened in the future then have been in the past. And that’s actually more-or-less original for a space opera.
Firefly is science fiction because of its setting. Space operas are a subcategory of science fiction. Science fiction is any story, no matter how imaginative or mundane, that is set in a setting that can be thought of as being extrapolated from what science might or could produce today, or another timeframe, or another reality.
Why don't you explain to me how Star Trek is science fiction based on your "what if" theory? What is the "what if" that makes Star Trek a science fiction show, according to you?
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In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.
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Quote:I would agree that much of the science in Star Trek is very optimistic, but I'm not entirely sure I would use the term pessimistic with Firefly. I don’t think we are meant to believe that there is a lack of development in technology in the Firefly world, but rather there is a lack of development in the social conditions surrounding our heroes. I think in the end, both Star Trek and Firefly are about the human conditions. And I think what Firefly is trying to say is that you don't need transporter beams and warp drives to have brave men and women who boldly go somewhere. You don't even need perfect unscalable characters like Picard to have honor or integrity. These things are embodied in the human condition right now. You don't need to wait for the future for mankind to be enlightened. That is what Firefly is telling us and it is a very optimistic view.
Originally posted by Alternity:
Underdeveloped is the right word. And an underdeveloped galaxy is not unrealistic in the future. Go to the Amazon rain forest in present day and you will find CD players juxtapositioned with blowguns. That is all you are seeing in the worlds that the Serenity visits. If you spread humanity thin by increasing communication and travel time, then it will look like it does in the Firefly universe. Star Trek had an optimistic view of the future where everyone reaped the benefits of technology. Firefly has a more pessimistic view. Either view is valid and reasonable. I personally find the optimistic view more entertaining and I watch TV to be entertained; it's an escape from my pessimistic reality. I don't really like future fiction that suggests that life will always suck.
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In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.
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Hmm...since we seem to be getting into the definition of science fiction, let me point you to a good link and quote some of the masters:
http://www.panix.com/~gokce/sf_defn.html
Ray Bradbury:
Science fiction is really sociological studies of the future, things that the writer believes are going to happen by putting two and two together.
John W. Campbell Jr.:
The major distinction between fantasy and science fiction is, simply, that science fiction uses one, or a very, very few new postulates, and develops the rigidly consistent logical consequences of these limited postulates. Fantasy makes its rules as it goes along...The basic nature of fantasy is "The only rule is, make up a new rule any time you need one!" The basic rule of science fiction is "Set up a basic proposition--then develop its consistent, logical consequences."
Lester del Ray:
... science fiction "is the myth-making principle of human nature today."
Heinlein:
Science Fiction is speculative fiction in which the author takes as his first postulate the real worldas we know it, including all established facts and natural laws. The result can be extremely fantastic in content, but it is not fantasy; it is legitimate--and often very tightly reasoned--speculation about the possibilities of the real world. This category excludes rocket ships that make U-turns, serpent men of Neptune that lust after human maidens, and stories by authors who flunked their Boy Scout merit badge tests in descriptive astronomy.
If you read the whole page, you'll find that there are as many definitions as there are writers and publishers. 
However, by most definitions Firefly certainly does qualify as science fiction, although obviously not as hard science fiction.
And Thegn - very well said. I agree absolutely.
This whole thread puts me in mind of a Babylon 5 discussion years ago, when a fan tried to convince JMS that his communicators were wrong because "everyone knows they go on your chest."
A show doesn't have to have aliens and shiny, pristine ships to be science fiction.
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Thank you! I looked all over the web for a definition, but for some reason I couldn't find one, in the lengthy 2 minutes I searched. ;)
Science fiction is a very broad subject and it's hard to define for that reason, but I can't believe we are having the discussion of whether Firefly is or not science fiction. It definitely is with no question.
The point to consider is what degree of science fiction. And while many people have suggested that it is not hard science fiction and others have suggested that it is not a space opera, but I'm not sure of either of these things.
I don't really know what determines whether science fiction is "hard" or not. I would imagine we are talking about the level of detachment from real science. Is "hard" science fiction closer to fantasy or reality? I don't know.
As for space operas, if there ever was a space opera, Firefly is it.
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In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.
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^You're welcome. I particularly love Heinlein's answer, since it reflects his sense of humor. 
And I suspect he would have considered Firefly space opera, too.
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My classification: Science-fiction Western comedy action adventure drama
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My classification: Science-fiction Western comedy action adventure drama
Sorry for the double post.
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