Hey what up with buffy and spike i throught buffy loves angel?

POSTED BY: hawaiiansgirl
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 19:46
VIEWED: 7620
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AURAPTOR

Sunday, April 10, 2005 4:12 PM

Can't fault a girl for gettin' some, can ya?

And from Spike and Angel's history, Spike was due a bit of pay back, imo.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

EMBERS

Sunday, April 10, 2005 4:23 PM

oh Angel was just the older, mentor guy...she doesn't need him any more
and Riley was just transition guy
and Spike was just a lapse due to depression

clearly cookie dough Barbi (oops, I mean BUFFY)
has finally found her true love:
The Immortal!

Personally I was hoping Buffy would show up on Ats S5 pregnant,
with Xander's baby
(LOL)

edited to add:
Oh I forgot Parker, how could I forget Parker?
Joss even said that he thought Parker was the love of Buffy's life
(the one who got away)....

GROUNDED

Sunday, April 10, 2005 9:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MacBaker:
Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
"Spike is in some ways more noble."

Er...I think not. Almost everything Spike does is motivated by self-interest.

Hmmmm, like the time he sacrificed himself saving Buffy and the other slayers? Yeah, that was so selfish of him!

I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.

If you reread my post you'll see the word 'almost' strategically placed at the start of the sentence.

MACBAKER

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 6:50 AM

WOW, two months to reply to that, and that is the best response you could come up with? Weak tea!

The fact is, Spike did many things for the group that weren't forced on him by his chip, before he reclaimed his soul. He protected Dawn countless times, and risked his life more than once to help the gang, when there was nothing in it for him.

Yeah, most of his "noble" actions were designed to please Buffy, but so were most of Angel's. It's what guys have done since the dawn of time to "get the girl".

The difference is, even when Spike had no soul, he was trying to become more than what he was. Even without a soul, he loved Buffy. The same cannot be said for Angelus.

Compairing Spike without a soul to Angel with one, is hardly a fair comparison. Angel had a soul for decades before he started really helping people. Spike only had a soul for a few months, and he was doing good. Yeah, begrudgingly, but is was far better than Angel's years of self pity and remorse without action.

With a soul, Spike is more like Angel than not. At the end of the Angel series, they are both fighting a side by side, with the odds stacked against them! Where's Spike's "self interest" in fighting a losing battle? Like Angel, he knew what was at stake (no pun intended)!

Without souls, it's clear who was the more noble! Spike fought for his soul. Angelus would have never changed what he was, until it was forced on him! The fact that he overcame that curse and the guilt that came with it, to do good, makes him noble, but not (IMHO) as noble as Spike. Angelus would still be evil if that curse had not be forced upon him. Spike, souless and evil, chose to change what he was, and fought to reclaim his soul.

You can say "almost" all you want, but it's a weak cover. When the big sacrifice had to be made, Spike made the noble choice, and gave his life saving others. Just Like Buffy had done before on the tower. By contrast, Angel had to be killed by Buffy, to save lives. What's noble about that?

What's interesting to me, is that unlike Angel, when Spike reclaimed his soul, he didn't think of himself now as "William"! Spike is who he is, and William is a part of his past. With or without a soul, he's still Spike! He's accepted who he is, and he has taken that side of himself and turned it to something good. Angel has to separate Angel from Angelus to cope with who he is now.

I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.

DIETCOKE

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 1:13 PM

I agree with you, I think Spike is a better person, well vampire, and is a better match for Buffy.

I loved season 6! The whole Buffy / Spike thing was very interesting to watch.

ZEEK

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 3:47 PM

I don't know about Spike being the better match for Buffy. He may be more noble without his soul than Angel but what does that have to do with anything. Buffy doesn't love Angelus. She didn't love Spike without his soul either. I think Buffy gets some say in who she does or doesn't love.

I think keeping Spike around in season 7 was more Buffy learning that people should be given a chance at redemption. If it had been season 4 she would never have given Spike a second chance. Just like she didn't give Faith a second chance when she finally woke up in season 4. Buffy had grown by season 7. She let Spike and Faith try to redeem themselves. Doesn't mean she loved either of them. She had a history of using Spike. I think she just kept on using him. He loved her and she could always call on him for support. She never loved him though. Even Spike knew it. "No you don't, but thanks for saying it."

MACBAKER

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 8:14 PM

Zeek, I agree! Buffy and Spike both used eachother, but that did change, and in the end, I do think it was love they felt.

The simple truth is, Buffy and Angel can't be together, without getting Angelus, so it is a consideration. They had to move on to other relationships. Spike is the better match, if only because like Angel. he is an equal, who can hold his own in a fight, and he doesn't have Angel's curse.

As far as Buffy is concerned, she isn't exactly chasing either of them down. Seems she's preoccupied with this Duncan McLeod type, The Immortal, but that's probably just a passing fancy. Time and the eventual Buffyverse movie will tell!

I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.

ZEEK

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MacBaker:
Zeek, I agree! Buffy and Spike both used eachother, but that did change, and in the end, I do think it was love they felt.

The simple truth is, Buffy and Angel can't be together, without getting Angelus, so it is a consideration. They had to move on to other relationships. Spike is the better match, if only because like Angel. he is an equal, who can hold his own in a fight, and he doesn't have Angel's curse.

As far as Buffy is concerned, she isn't exactly chasing either of them down. Seems she's preoccupied with this Duncan McLeod type, The Immortal, but that's probably just a passing fancy. Time and the eventual Buffyverse movie will tell!

I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.

Bah the immortal is obviously just a fling. People have little flings in Europe all the time. Same goes for Buffy.

The thing is I don't think one person could fit well with Angel and with Spike. They have very different personalities. If Buffy loved Angel I just can't see her loving Spike. Someone losing their soul and turning evil is not going to even make the heart skip a beat. Logic is not involved much in love.

GROUNDED

Tuesday, April 12, 2005 10:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MacBaker:
WOW, two months to reply to that, and that is the best response you could come up with? Weak tea!

My sincerest apologies. I'll check the forum every five minutes from now on to make sure I don't miss a post... ;) And I like my tea weak.

Quote:
Originally posted by MacBaker:

The fact is, Spike did many things for the group that weren't forced on him by his chip, before he reclaimed his soul. He protected Dawn countless times, and risked his life more than once to help the gang, when there was nothing in it for him.

Everything Spike does while he has the chip is done in the interests of self-preservation. He has to keep the group sweet so that the next time he steps out of line (as we see him do on a couple of occasions) they'll feel indebted to him and won't stake him.

Quote:
Originally posted by MacBaker:

Yeah, most of his "noble" actions were designed to please Buffy, but so were most of Angel's. It's what guys have done since the dawn of time to "get the girl".

It's easy to see this isn't true once Angel has become dissociated from Buffy in his own show. In I Will Remember You he gives up his chance to be with her because he knows it'll hurt her in the long run. In Hero he's ready to die to save some random demons. In The Trial he's ready to die just to spare Darla. This is nobility.

Quote:
Originally posted by MacBaker:

The difference is, even when Spike had no soul, he was trying to become more than what he was. Even without a soul, he loved Buffy. The same cannot be said for Angelus.

There is no reason to believe he loved Buffy when he had no soul. He was obsessed with her and there's a gigantic difference. If you love someone, you don't attempt to rape them.

Quote:
Originally posted by MacBaker:

Compairing Spike without a soul to Angel with one, is hardly a fair comparison. Angel had a soul for decades before he started really helping people. Spike only had a soul for a few months, and he was doing good. Yeah, begrudgingly, but is was far better than Angel's years of self pity and remorse without action.

I believe this is one of the greatest oversights in the Buffyverse. It was easy for them to say Angel had been struggling with guilt for 90 years because it was all in the past and off camera. If they'd been true to the rules of the Buffyverse, I think Spike should have experienced a great deal more guilt than he was shown to, but of course that would have occupied a lot of S7 and clearly they didn't want to go that way.

Quote:
Originally posted by MacBaker:

With a soul, Spike is more like Angel than not. At the end of the Angel series, they are both fighting a side by side, with the odds stacked against them! Where's Spike's "self interest" in fighting a losing battle? Like Angel, he knew what was at stake (no pun intended)!

This is true, Spike did develop well in S5.

Quote:
Originally posted by MacBaker:

Without souls, it's clear who was the more noble! Spike fought for his soul. Angelus would have never changed what he was, until it was forced on him! The fact that he overcame that curse and the guilt that came with it, to do good, makes him noble, but not (IMHO) as noble as Spike. Angelus would still be evil if that curse had not be forced upon him. Spike, souless and evil, chose to change what he was, and fought to reclaim his soul.

Not true. Spike does not fight for his soul because he believes it's right (as he claims in S5). Rewatch the end of S6 Buffy - when he rides off on the motorcycle it's clear his intention to get his soul back in order to have a better chance with Buffy. Thoroughly selfish. But then you wouldn't expect anything else since he was still soulless at the time.

Quote:
Originally posted by MacBaker:

You can say "almost" all you want, but it's a weak cover. When the big sacrifice had to be made, Spike made the noble choice, and gave his life saving others.

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