Any Tolkien linguists out there?

POSTED BY: montanagirl
UPDATED: Friday, February 11, 2005 22:03
VIEWED: 5842
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MONTANAGIRL

Monday, January 10, 2005 4:11 AM

My best friend didn't read the books until after the movies either, which she was very glad of since she could just enjoy the movies on their own while I ranted about how they had screwed up "my" Faramir.

There was a Montana Browncoats thread that I dug up a little while ago, but nobody responded to it but me and reginaroadie, who wasn't even technically in Montana .

Packer fans welcome.
All others tolerated.

DIETCOKE

Monday, January 10, 2005 4:20 AM

So are you are Faramir fan too? He was my favorite character in the book! He was so short-changed in the movie... I have spent hours boring my husband and explaining who he was and why he was such a loved character.

We're not alone. I've heard other people say that the only big disappointment for them in the movie was Faramir.

I have to say, I liked the actor and thought he did a nice job, the character was just not written like he is in the book.

I wasn't upset that Tom B. wasn't in the show. He was interesting but didn't drive the plot. But Faramir, dang, I just thought he was great in the book.

MONTANAGIRL

Monday, January 10, 2005 4:33 AM

I am so in love with Faramir it isn't even funny. He is my absolute favorite character from the book. I can quote him at the drop of a hat. During Two Towers when they had him saying, "The ring goes to Gondor," I just kept muttering to myself, "I would not take this thing if I found it by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No, I do not wish for such triumphs, Frodo son of Drogo." Meanwhile, people around me gave me odd looks and unobtrusively scooted away . Then when I was watching the appendices and Phillipa was explaining why they had totally screwed him up (only she didn't use that term), I actually got into an argument with my TV screen and got so upset I had to turn it off and call my mom to cool down. I tend to become irrationally attached to fictional characters. But I agree that David Wenham did an excellent job with the part as it was written. I just wish they would have had more between him and Eowyn in the Houses of Healing. Even the little bit they added into the extended edition wasn't nearly enough to explain the relationship that developed between them. I was always so happy that Faramir and Eowyn ended up together (after he figuratively kicked her in the butt to make her come to grips with her feelings.) They made a wonderful couple.

Packer fans welcome.
All others tolerated.

AURAPTOR

Monday, January 10, 2005 4:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dietcoke:
So are you are Faramir fan too? He was my favorite character in the book! He was so short-changed in the movie... I have spent hours boring my husband and explaining who he was and why he was such a loved character.

We're not alone. I've heard other people say that the only big disappointment for them in the movie was Faramir.

I have to say, I liked the actor and thought he did a nice job, the character was just not written like he is in the book.

I wasn't upset that Tom B. wasn't in the show. He was interesting but didn't drive the plot. But Faramir, dang, I just thought he was great in the book.

DIET - I'd consider your hubby lucky. I'd love to find one who's a fan of Tolkien my own self. Yeah, Tom B would have been more trouble than it's worth, IMO. PJ did well enough to include what he could.

Also, I find that I need correcting myself when it comes to pronouncing certain words properly, such as those that start w/ "C". In the Western or Common tongue, words that beging in c have the hard k sound. So celeb would sound more like 'keleb'and not 'seleb'. Cirith would be 'Keer- eth ' and not Seer-eth. For the longest time, I was misreading them and it's taking some time to relearn how to say it in the correct Tolkien style. Oh well.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

DIETCOKE

Monday, January 10, 2005 4:53 AM

Boy, you hit the nail on the head! I totally agree with you. Thank God I saw the movie before I read the book or I too would be having a fit!

I have been on a couple of LORT sites and there seems to be a consenses that Faramir was the major flaw in the movie.

I know you can't cram the book into three movies, so I wasn't upset about some things being missing, but I am like you. I loved Faramir in the book. He was the most noble person in the book for me. He was a very selfless, giving and wise. Heck, he could have been King for me!

DIETCOKE

Monday, January 10, 2005 5:06 AM

Wow. I have to know how you learned all of this. I read the entire book but I don't REMEMBER all the the words and how they should be pronounced.

How many times have you read the book? I've only read it once after seeing all three movies but I will be back again and again!

I'm glad to see that people who like great writers like Joss like the professor too!

AURAPTOR

Monday, January 10, 2005 2:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dietcoke:
Wow. I have to know how you learned all of this. I read the entire book but I don't REMEMBER all the the words and how they should be pronounced.

How many times have you read the book? I've only read it once after seeing all three movies but I will be back again and again!

I'm glad to see that people who like great writers like Joss like the professor too!

That's odd. My post some how got MONTANAGIRL's name associated w/ it. Some weird glitchy thing, I suppose. It was me who said

Quote:
DIET - I'd consider your hubby lucky. I'd love to find one who's a fan of Tolkien my own self. Yeah, Tom B would have been more trouble than it's worth, IMO. PJ did well enough to include what he could.

Also, I find that I need correcting myself when it comes to pronouncing certain words properly, such as those that start w/ "C". In the Western or Common tongue, words that beging in c have the hard k sound. So celeb would sound more like 'keleb'and not 'seleb'. Cirith would be 'Keer- eth ' and not Seer-eth. For the longest time, I was misreading them and it's taking some time to relearn how to say it in the correct Tolkien style. Oh well.

As for the pronouciations of words, check the back of ROTK and read the appendecies. There's TONS of stuff back there that isn't covered in the book. Things like what happened to the Fellowship after Elrond, Gandalf, Frodo et al set sail from the Grey Havens. Most folks assume that when Elrond set sail, he was the last Elf to leave Middle Earth. Actually, many elves remained for a good long time. Legolas and Gimli went on trips together, making good on their pledge to visit each other's home lands.

Now, lets see if this posts properly or if there's still a glitch.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

DIETCOKE

Monday, January 10, 2005 4:20 PM

I actually did read the appendecies and enjoyed learning what happened to everyone. I glanced through the part on how things should be pronounced but didn't spend too much time there.

Can you recommend any other great books?

CAPTAINCDC

Thursday, January 13, 2005 6:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by montanagirl:
During Two Towers when they had him saying, "The ring goes to Gondor," I just kept muttering to myself, "I would not take this thing if I found it by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No, I do not wish for such triumphs, Frodo son of Drogo." Meanwhile, people around me gave me odd looks and unobtrusively scooted away . Then when I was watching the appendices and Phillipa was explaining why they had totally screwed him up (only she didn't use that term), I actually got into an argument with my TV screen and got so upset ........I tend to become irrationally attached to fictional characters. But I agree that David Wenham did an excellent job with the part as it was written. I just wish they would have had more between him and Eowyn in the Houses of Healing. Even the little bit they added into the extended edition wasn't nearly enough to explain the relationship that developed between them. I was always so happy that Faramir and Eowyn ended up together (after he figuratively kicked her in the butt to make her come to grips with her feelings.) They made a wonderful couple.

I felt pretty much the same way. I loved what the writers did with the story over all, but I did not buy their explanation for having to change the Faramir storyline. I thought it worked just fine the way it was without adding in any more drama just for drama's sake.

Ka is a wheel, time but a face on the water.

THIEFJEHAT

Friday, February 11, 2005 9:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by montanagirl:
During Two Towers when they had him saying, "The ring goes to Gondor," I just kept muttering to myself, "I would not take this thing if I found it by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No, I do not wish for such triumphs, Frodo son of Drogo." Then when I was watching the appendices and Phillipa was explaining why they had totally screwed him up (only she didn't use that term), I actually got into an argument with my TV screen.

Montanagirl,

Finally a person who thinks as I do! Reading that post was like reading thoughts from my own brain. I mentioned this briefly on a thread in the buffy forum in reference to the errors committed against season 7 but I'd just love to rant 100% of my LOTR feelings out here.

As I've stated before regarding the development of Willow in Buffy season 7, I hold violations of character to be the greatest sin a writer can commit against an art. In Peter Jackson's LOTR trilogy there may be a lot of things I disliked but there are two unforgivable events that occured:

Farimir's character was violated in the TT in what I term the "The ring goes to Gondor" scene.

Sam's character was violated in the ROTK in what I term the "Sam go home" scene.

First off, lets examine Farimir. Farimir is the second son of Denethor, steward of Gondor. His brother, Boromir is the stronger in prowess, and considered the greater war leader. But there was an important point Tolkien was trying to make here regarding the brothers. Although Boromir was the physically stronger, the faster, the better leader, and whatnot...he was seduced and corrupted by the power of the ring. Farimir however, resisted. Farimir was talented in different ways, he was stronger in will where his brother was stronger in body. And there, in Ithillen, in the shadow of the enemy where the ring was growing in seductive power, Farimir says "I do not wish for such triumphs Frodo son of Drogo" In that desperate moment of seduction he proved his quality. Now when I watched this moment on the big screen you better believe I was utterly shocked. Up until that moment I hadn't been greatly dissipointed by anything Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens had done. Yea there were all kinds of irratitions throughout and they were usually related to handing Liv Tyler more screen time then she really deserved. But then there came this...this...this terrible alteration of character. And I went through the stages of grief about it to: I denied I saw it, then I got mad, then I tried to rationalize it before falling into the depression I'm in today. I waited impatiently 11 months after that to buy the extended verson just so I could listen to the commentary. What I heard made me mad but at least the trio had a semi-plausable explaination: To not take the ring to Gondor would create a gap in the film where Sam and Frodo are more-or-less idle and that won't sit well with audiences...what the writing industry usually calls a "pitfall" So they pulled the trek back to Gondor out of the air. My response? They still did wrong. All they really had to do was space out the Frodo/Sam sequences more than they did and just deal with them not being uber-active, the viewers will understand. It's a trilogy after all. But in this next sin they have no excuse and that infuriates me!

"Sam, go home" What? What just happened there? Why on this earth would our 3 writers change the assent of the hidden stair to include this confrontation? What great good can come from this? I can't imagine that professor Tolkien would have stood idle and watched this violation of Sam. Jackson says he respects and admires Tolkien and knows so much about the man's life. He stated to Sean Astin during casting that Sam is a representation of a Batmen, or rather the loyal attendent to a british officer, and in Tolkiens case, a representation of the professor's own Batmen in WWI, just as the faces in t

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