A sad state of affairs...

POSTED BY: DarkArchon
UPDATED: Saturday, November 27, 2004 00:54
VIEWED: 6750
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HKCAVALIER

Thursday, November 25, 2004 6:49 PM

Oh, lordy, not this again... Taking photographs of the prisoners was not just a gorram whim, it's standard precedure for dealing with particularly shame-based cultures. Tell the prisoner that his family is going to see the pictures of his humiliation and his homosexual acts, the story goes, and he will do anything you say. The photos are reutinely used for blackmailing the prisoners into compliance. They've been taking pictures like this for decades, only in the past the picture taking has been conducted entirely by the CIA and not the regular army. You gotta know the CIA has been doing all of this and worse without the media getting wise. Rummy was tired of the CIA being the only game in town and put the torture in the hands of relatively untrained and undisciplined folks who "couldn't keep it together."

And your second point draws a false comparison between our military hierarchy and a bunch of "lawless" terrorists. We have a chain of command which reaches all the way to Rummy and Dubya. "The enemy" answers to no one. Our armies represent our Nation and should reflect our way of life. "They" arogate authority and claim to act in the interest of the very people they terrorize into submission. We are not only fighting head-chopping terrorists, we are also fighting nationalists trying to protect their heritage. Comparing our armed forces to terrorists is a lot like comparing police officers to coke dealers. "So we killed one junkie, they participate in drive-by shootings!" Saying that all Moslems "support the terrorists" is like saying that all Italian Americans are part of the Mafia.

Quote:
Originally posted by DarkArchon:
'For anyone who persists in that mistaken notion, I'd like to point out the most recent example of Abu Ghraib.'

Because the 'Prezdent' is in the habit of calling up troops in the field and telling them to take photos of nude prisoners all the while hoping the media don't get a hold of it. Got a line nobody else does? I'm just curious...

BTW...what those soldiers did was wrong, but if that's the worst we do, we're still miles ahead of video taping cutting peoples heads off and sending it out for the world to watch. The BIG difference being that for us it was the Exception to the rule and not the RULE as it is with the terrorists.

-Dark/Blue

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

RUE

Thursday, November 25, 2004 8:46 PM

Quote:
Got a line nobody else does?

Well, we could believe the Prez-dent and Pentagon brass. These soldier-perverts got together and found they could all get down with the same kind of party. They pooled their resources, went to the px and bought dog collars, leashes, alligator clips, chains, cameras, film and other readily available supplies. Ever eager to add to the party, Lindie England contributed domestic skills and went to the local market for a supply of black cloth, spending many nights (when she wasn't on duty) sewing hoods. Fully stocked and supplied with everything needed for sophisticated sexual fun, they partied hearty.

Or we could believe the private who sent pix and mail to his dad, worried about the legal consequences of what they were instructed to do. We could believe the words of the privates who said they were instructed by intelligence to do what they did. (Unfortunately, being instructed or even being directly ordered to do something illegal is no excuse in the Geneva Convention.) Perhaps we believe Maj Gen Karpinski who said this was by direction of intelligence. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1958478
Or we could believe the Red Cross, who, months before, after having seen many examples of mistreatment and torture, concluded it was systematic. (It's on the Int'l Red Cross web site.)

I don't know. What to conclude. it's all so confusing.

PIRATEJENNY

Friday, November 26, 2004 6:15 AM

I read that and all I could think is your friend really should get a clue..I mean he's in the miltary..he signed up to be fodder for the slaughter...he sounds really brainwashed..espeically if he seriously thinks he's there to protect the Iraqi people...and if he just can't get it around his thick skull why they don't want Americans . poor guy really thinks there is a bigger picture

I almost feel sorry for your friend because he seems to be living in la la land..I suppose in his situation you really need something to believe in to get you threw it

Your friend seems to want to believe that he has some grand purpose for being in Iraq...

for his sake..may his delusions be a comfort to him..because if he ever starts getting clued into the reality of the situationI fear from his letter..he may not be able to take it!!!

PIRATEJENNY

Friday, November 26, 2004 6:20 AM

Quote:
And your second point draws a false comparison between our military hierarchy and a bunch of "lawless" terrorists. We have a chain of command which reaches all the way to Rummy and Dubya. "The enemy" answers to no one. Our armies represent our Nation and should reflect our way of life.

and your point would be????

PIRATEJENNY

Friday, November 26, 2004 6:35 AM

Quote:
I've lived in 3 Red states counting PA. I've found the same thing. Democrats and Republicans sharing the same basic core moral values. Values they hold more dear then their class interests or elitist philisophical notions. Most are God, Family, and Football, all of which they manage to fit in on Sunday.

and this is also very sad..and its the reason why our country can now be considered the titanic..where already sailing in icy waters its only a matter of time before we hit that iceberg and sink..

you know out of the 3 that you mentioned family is really the only one that has any importance..and that wasn't even 1st on the list

geez, I would love to think that as a society we aren't that stupid....but your probably right !!

whoever said it was a sad state of affairs has it correct because that is pretty sad!!

Quote:

But get out of the way cause the rest of us are comin through. We're building this new world one day at a time..

what new world are you talking about..can you elaborate on this..I'm curious

TETHYS

Friday, November 26, 2004 7:09 AM

As a veteran Non-Commissioned Officer in the Army that had a VERY hazardous occupation (scout-sniper), my response is both as a man and a vet.

The soldier that is coming under fire from people here is not neccesarily a hero, nor a pawn of our government. He is a man doing his job, and having seen combat myself, you do what you have to do to survive and to help your fellow soldiers survive in a WAR. He doesn't have the luxury of sitting around debating the war in Iraq, and wether or not it's right or wrong. He is surviving so he can come home to his family.
To judge him without having the same experiences is base, IGNORANT, and the height of STUPIDITY. People that judge without ANY knowledge of the situation for our soldiers overseas should be sent on the next C-130 Baghdad-Bound.
Soldiers do NOT have a say-so in where they go, and wether or not to participate in a war situation. That's the life of a soldier. To do the hard things, right or wrong, so people can sit here, snivel and criticize them. He isn't brainwashed by the military, he is saying how he feels, which in this case is no more or lwess than the TRUTH. In his position, I would have wasted the Iraqi as well. And so would you, and any other person in the world, if we were all in that position.
To say otherwise is a liar, and in that case, this board does not need liars. We are all intelligent people that can make up our own minds, not repeat what we hear elsewhere. Grow up, and see the situation through his eyes.
And before you formulate a response, know this "O ye of little brains." I am against the War in Iraq. There was no proof, yada yada. I feel that we had no business in Iraq. However, that is my opinion. Here is my FACT: I support the soldiers overseas, every last one of them. They are thousands of miles away, participating in an action that they don't necessarily believe in.
Join the military, spend a few years in a combat related field, and then you'll have earned the right to criticize a soldier. If you're not willing to do that, STFU!

"Your mouth is talking. Might wanna see to that"

PIRATEJENNY

Friday, November 26, 2004 9:25 AM

In response to Tetheys

did you read his letter,

I defintely wouldn't call him a hero..as for a pawn..I'm not sure about that.. we have a volunteer army right now so if he is I would have to say a willing pawn...but as you well know having been in the miltary....they do brainwash you..that is what boot camp is all about..and if you say it anit so ..your lying...

you follow orders in the miltary without question, thats what they train you to do...my stepfather was a drill Sergent..so I think I know a little something about it!!

Quote:
To judge him without having the same experiences is base, IGNORANT, and the height of STUPIDITY.

and from this guys letter..its obvious he's not dealing in all the facts..I would say we are juding his letter more then we are judging him..because all we have to go on is his letter we don't know him.

he doesn't really seem to understand the country or the people whoes country he's in ..his information seems to be scewed ...it sounds from the letter that he's under the impression he's in Iraq fighting for some just cause...under his circumstances I can easily understand why someone would need to feed off such delusions..when your told to kill someone you want to believe that there is some noble reason for it...Is the guy just trying to survive I'm sure he is...but its sad that this guy has to lie to himself and is being lied to ,to carryout this war

I think most of us know that soilers take orders, and that they are just doing there job, and that most of them don't have much of a choice..your not suppose to think or have a choice in the miltary..you are there to take orders and carry out your duties!!

yeah we get it..

but that doesn't change the situation..nor does it make this guy's letter any less sad!!

As for joining the miltary..NO thank you....not for all the tea in china...

...

TETHYS

Friday, November 26, 2004 9:32 AM

Ahem......BTW, before ya open yer yapper, be sure what yer yapping about. I am the type of person that tells the truth, even if it damns me. Which it has on occasion......

You are conditioned in Basic Training...you can call it Brainwashing if you like. Since you do, might wanna have another talk with pops. As to his tone, I don't address it at all. I address the posts made by eveyone else criticizing the soldiers overseas, so read the post again, then read it very carefully where it says...ahem:

Quote:

Join the military, spend a few years in a combat related field, and then you'll have earned the right to criticize a soldier. If you're not willing to do that, STFU!

"Your mouth is talking. Might wanna see to that"

And I am addressing EVERYONE that criticizes the people overseas doing what they are doing. For whatever reason they're doing it for, not necessarily 100% about the individual's letter, but then again, if the shoe fits....

"Your mouth is talking. Might wanna see to that"

UNICORN

Friday, November 26, 2004 4:53 PM

Flame-bait! Be warned!

Quote:

Quote:

But get out of the way cause the rest of us are comin through. We're building this new world one day at a time..

what new world are you talking about..can you elaborate on this..I'm curious

Well, piratejenny,

That shiny, brave new world? It's the one where America calls all the shots because we're such an accurate representation of the values of the entire world, and because we're God's pet nation.

That shiny new world is the one where homos are allowed to serve and die in the army, so long as they don't talk about the way they're homos, but they can't legally get married because their children don't deserve that stability.

That brave place, built up by proud, God-fearing Christians (i.e., Americans), one brick at a time, will allow other people to express their religious beliefs unless the Christians find those beliefs offensive.
Political beliefs differing from the norm may be expressed at the risk of the person expressing them; those persons expressing different political beliefs may well be labeled traitors and treated with the incredible tolerance that traitors like them warrant: they won't be hauled out and shot, because that's the American way!

Oh shiny, brave new world that has such bigots running it!

There is no such thing as a weed.

RUE

Saturday, November 27, 2004 12:32 AM

I just have time for a quick reply:
"I address the posts made by eveyone else criticizing the soldiers overseas."

I don't find anyone criticizing 'them' generically or the shooter specifically anywhere here.

I see a letter from one soldier who THINKS the shooter will be criticized. I see him unloading a large amount of hostility and anger at people he THINKS will be doing the criticizing. I see in THAT letter a large amount of obvious internal contradiction which I suspect comes from basic confusion. His letter is what I was, and still am, addressing.

As to a soldier's 'place' in the military: the relationship goes far beyond employer/employee and military service goes far beyond a 'job'. Military control over its members is like nothing in civilian life. If it were not so, every service-member would be just another civilian employee. And that is not the case.

So, to get back to my point: I don't see liberals in full witch-hunt mode. Do you? If not them, from which direction will the punishment come? Abu Ghraib leads the way. Liberals were not the ones calling it isolated actions of rogue soldiers. That came from the Prez-dent and the Pentagon. And by the postings on THIS board, from conservatives and faux libertarians who were only too happy to make the soldiers the fall guys, so as to protect the Administration.

In the end, was it the conservatives who supported the troops? Or were they right in line with the Prez-dent and Pentagon, over there by the handy tree with the noose?

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