Just stop the useless complaining.
POSTED BY: LostInTheVerse
UPDATED: Thursday, November 25, 2004 04:27
VIEWED: 24069
PAGE 16 of 17
As usual, I just have some notes in the margins to contribute.
I read an SF book by LeGuinn with a clever rhyme, unfortunately, I can only remember two lines: Time is a manacle, Time is tyrannical ...
Not being a physicist or even a well-versed amateur I just want to contribute my notion of time: time happens when space expands by whatever means, while energy does not. Thus things 'run down' giving processes direction and creating a clock. (Or hey, it may just be an effect of our perceptions of bulk properties of a certain scale.)
For the record, my background is biology and medical topics, and chemistry, in that order.
Getting back to religion, SignyM, the 'supertitious pigeon' was a part of my basic psychology class. What it was was a pigeon in a cage where a tasty pellet (reward) would drop in at random. Whatever the pigeon was doing at the time - ruffling its feathers, turning in a circle, pecking the floor etc - the pigeon would then repeat at intervals. Then at some other time another pellet would plop in, and whatever the pigeon was doing at THAT time it would repeat in sequence with the first action. So over time, the pigeon would develop elaborate rituals that it would repeat over and over, to earn what was an essentially random reward.
Scary when one extends that to the human condition.
I've read recently that unexpected rewards are MUCH more reinforcing than planned ones, and yes, it's all linked to dopamine (somewhow)... And when you look at religion, it's not so much that you pray really hard and get something, it's that you pray and pray and pray and pray and ... something good occasionally happens and you get that random reward. So you end up praying even more, which makes it that much more likely some random good will happen after praying. It hadn't occurred to me until you brought that up. And maybe that's why people cling to religion when there is science, technology, government, or ANY reliable solution to a problem. The drawback IS the reliability, it is just so much less rewarding than that random event, because it is inextricably so much less useflul. Hmmm, maybe that's how people can be deprogrammed from cults. Find a medicine that boosts dopamine ... (sublinguial histamine is one) ... let me think on that.
SigmaNunki, let me ask you - did I drive Tragic away when I asked for a repeat of that one word I couldn't figure out? It seems like ever since, Tragic got curt, snide, cryptic and then - went away. If I did, I'm sorry. It was not at all what I wanted to do. I really wanted input from that direction.
Religion and culture are so enmeshed with each other. The burkha, like the loya jirga, are not actually Muslim inventions, they are tribal ones. And Christianity of the post-Luther kind with its emphasis on being materially blessed, comes from a culture of merchantalism and capitalism, not from the new testament of following THE Lord and leaving everything else. And Catholicism was certainly reinvented around 350AD or thereabouts into a huge officialdom.
I think religion, by its reference to the supernatural, can be used as the mega-enforcer for what are otherwise simply existing social strictures, historical hierarchies, economic systems etc. If you don't obey these priests, the sun won't return; or, you'll lose the gods' favor AND the war; if you don't sacrifice the harvest will be bad, disease will sweep your flocks etc. At that point I'm not sure it's possible to disentagle religion from culture, they've been merged into a functional unit. Even core religious beliefs get changed to make them more socially useful. Christianity comes to mind as the obvious recent example.
When it comes to world story, I guess I don't see as distinct a cut as either of you. To me world story is not only a history of how did all this get to be here, it is also addresses the nature of the universe, our place in it and, ultimately, what makes us who we are.
Anyway, I'm out of time. My constant refrain. I'll probably not get back for a few days. But it was nice to chat with
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
SigmaNunki, let me ask you - did I drive Tragic away when I asked for a repeat of that one word I couldn't figure out? It seems like ever since, Tragic got curt, snide, cryptic and then - went away. If I did, I'm sorry. It was not at all what I wanted to do. I really wanted input from that direction.
Lord no! All you did was to ask for clarity. If anything I would think that the definition that I put forth that has made him not want to be involved in this conversation anymore. After all, how can science be a religion if the defining quality of religion is the super-natural. But when I comes down to it we are still discussing the definition (which I find fun
).But, then again, he did liken us to fundamentalists (read: insulted us). Which I find funny because latter in the post he thanked us for keeping it civil, which is contradictory to the mentioned comment.
In the end, I would guess that he had found a definition that fit his view of science and ignored the massive number of definition that contradicted this. When confronted with this fact he had two choices. Namely, realize the mistake or ignore it and continue on. I would think that the latter is his choice since it has been some time and still silence. Especially since I've seen him post in other threads here. In general, people don't like to admit "defeat," temporary or otherwise.
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
If you don't obey these priests, the sun won't return; or, you'll lose the gods' favor AND the war; if you don't sacrifice the harvest will be bad, disease will sweep your flocks etc.
This is an excellent desciption of Western religions, but Eastern ones don't really follow this pattern. For them, I think, it was society that did that. Perhaps if society didn't produce this effect religion would've taken up the cause.
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
At that point I'm not sure it's possible to disentagle religion from culture, they've been merged into a functional unit. Even core religious beliefs get changed to make them more socially useful. Christianity comes to mind as the obvious recent example.
True every religion has changed to suit it's current enviornment. Buddhism is another excellent example when it went from India through Asia.
But I do think that religion can be disentangled from culture. I see the beginnings of it now with the progress of society from a religous base to a secular one. It will always be involved at some level, but for society as a whole, religions dominance is nearing its end, IMO.
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
When it comes to world story, I guess I don't see as distinct a cut as either of you. To me world story is not only a history of how did all this get to be here, it is also addresses the nature of the universe, our place in it and, ultimately, what makes us who we are.
It is a large grey area. I remove it from the definition of religion because some have it, some don't, and "world story" can be interpreted as anything. 'Tis a very ambiguous term.
And as usual, you guys have given me some things to think about
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Man, you guys have been busy! I'm afraid this post of mine is gonna be quite long, but I'll try to keep it interesting.
Hey everybody, I'll do what I can to speak on behalf of us religious people here. I don't know that a lot of other religious people would consider me to be one of them, but some of the things our dear friend SignyM has put forward have irked me at such a "primitive" level that I have to speak (woo-hoo! I get to disagree with Signy! Next thing you know I'll be contesting one of Rue's sources
).
I'm not a big authority on traditional Native American shamanism or family traditional witchcraft (when I do read so-called "scholarly" texts on these subjects I mostly find a lot of frivolous, misinformed b.s.--Gerald Gardner, I'm looking at you--and no guide/mentor/teacher has ever directed me to read a book on the subject). Not even sure they would qualify as "religions" to a lot of folks, but I have studied and practiced within these traditions for most of my life. Both of these traditions are orally transmitted in practice, pre-literate in their origins and animistic at their core, so what would seem to be the essential trappings of religious hierarchy and dogma have very little to do with what I've practiced.
Also, shamanism and witchcraft have a decidedly practical side (you might be more comfortable calling them "healing arts" than "religions), whereas the "great religions" as they are apparently experienced by the vast majority of humans seem to be largely devotional, aesthetic and conciliatory. The great religions of the world present God as something huge and dangerous to life which we puny humans need to please, if we are to prosper--hence the term "god-fearing." Most religions enact a "child/parent" relationship between us and the divine with all that relationship's attendant neuroses and distortion intact. But what happens when our spiritual selves mature? Do we all just become atheists? For a lot of people it is next to impossible really to befriend their parents in an adult and intimate way, but does that mean it never happens?
Witchcraft and shamanism, as I know them, at all times emphasize perception over dogma. The principles of witchcraft and shamanism are readily available to experience but not necessarily verifiable and repeatable. Science is dedicated to taking things apart in order to understand them, but many things in this world cease to be when dismembered. I once read that western physics concerns itself with describing reality by breaking it apart into smaller and smaller pieces while eastern physics concerns itself with describing reality by meditating on its origin, nature and purpose.
Because witchcraft is a practical discipline, much of what constitutes "ritual practice" is investigative in nature. You do what works. Specific rituals in witchcraft have specific real world purposes and so if they don't succeed, you try something else. And just to be clear here, witchcraft, like western science, is more efficacious in certain areas than in others. If I get in a car wreck, I'm going to the ER. But if I want to prevent that car wreck in the first place, I'm gonna continue my study of the origin, nature and purpose of car wrecks.
Quote:
Code of behavior
Here's a thing. It is generally understood that the wiccan rede, "An it harm none, do what thou wilt" is a code of conduct. You know, live and let live. But as I have been taught (and have yet to find any corroboration in books, so feel free to dismiss my "findings"), the rede refers more accurately to a principle of the living universe that nothing occurs without consent. It's basically saying that it is impossible to harm others at the level of soul, because all souls collaborate on reality. What this means is that at the fundamental level of truth, vengeance and harm are not possible. They are illusions. The rede is included in ritual as a clearing of the mind of the illusions of force and error to better align the mind with the realities of conse
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
IT WOULD BE HELPFUL IF RELIGIOUS PPL WOULD JOIN IN AND LET ADD THEIR VIEWS OF RELIGION. (Otherwise y'all get stuck with me trying to explain your beliefs!
Five days ago this was a hot thread. Since my last post...nothing (I thought my days of thread slaying were over
). Did I say something wrong? Usually, I chalk it up to people's lives taking precedent, but Signy & Rue & Sigma have all been posting (Signy quite a lot). You'll talk to Geezer, but you won't talk to me. Does that seem right to you?HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Thanks for joining HK. My time here is limited, so my end of a discussion tends to be quite late. And sometimes it's just easier to post a quick remark to someone who's WAY out there, but it takes me a LOT longer for a longer, thoughtful discussion.
When I said I was indifferent to religion I meant REALLY indifferent.
Mostly my experience with people who 'have religion' (and I admit it's a narrow selection of Mormons, JW's, and Born-Agains) is that they are closed-minded, self-righteous, intolerant, and able to rationalize all sorts of contradictions in order to maintain their self-selection as a special (superior) person. However, in my life I have met three people - two Catholics from the 'old-country' and one southern African-American Baptist - in whom religion seemed to enhance their dignity, tolerance, and integrity (though I have to say they were all intelligent and savvy people, though not necessarily educated, who survived extremely tough circumstances, and who also seemed to naturally be broad thinkers). So my observation is that religion works OK for some people.
BTW I was raised Roman Catholic but I guess it took only enough for me to find hypocrites among the vilest scum around. I do consider myself an ethical person. And if I have a core belief, it is the belief of 'just enough'. If that were to be adopted, I think it would preserve what's left of our planet, and create security between people and peace of mind in individuals. I've also done a bit of reading, enough to know I like the Tao and the Gospel of Thomas as sources of insight.
In terms of the saying that was brought up that Signy first responded to in another thread, 'there are no atheists in a foxhole' in my hospital incarnations, I have seen hundreds (literally) of people die. I've stayed in numerous ICUs while people I loved struggled with death, and while some lost.
Despite that, I don't personally find the need for, or use of, formal religion. What does religion do for those who seek it? I'm curious. I hope this question doesn't offend you and I truly hope you can explain it to me. Thanks ahead of time. Rue
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Sorry HK- I post where my anger leads me!
Been busy too.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Five days ago this was a hot thread. Since my last post...nothing (I thought my days of thread slaying were over
I've been going through some rather involving personal struggles over the weekend, and it still continues. I'm over that major hump of it but still have some soul searching to do to find out... well, what I'm going to do. Plus, I've also been involved in abstract algebra and coding theory (test tommorow).
To be sure, I definitly will answer your post. In fact, it's pained me that I couldn't respond. So, many things to say
For now, I must sleep. Good night all
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Ah, all is mended. I just kinda put myself out there a little in that last post and, you know, when you put yourself out there and nobody comes back at you, you can make up some pretty innersting explainations.
Sigma, goodnight.
Signy, I've noticed that about you. Sometimes I marvel at your stamina for the debate.
Rue, I've known people whom I would concider seekers, who might indeed seek religion. I sorta came by mine by the way of least resistance. I've had dealings with the paranormal all my life. That stuff saught me out. Now, according to the catholics I was dealing with the Adversary, and according to ordinary scientistic consensus I was crazy. Then I met some nice witches and according to them I was simply gifted. Of the three, I liked that last one the best.
I'm put in mind of the latin root of the word religion: religare or something, which means to re-link up or re-connect to the source; to reconnect with our origins. For me it means carrying a conscious awareness of the interconnectedness of all that is, has been, and ever will be. I might say that religion is communion with the eternal part of myself. Mostly, I want to know what's going on and how I fit in. My religious experience is the sum of all my vocabulary for who I really am, if that makes sense.
Anyway, more later, my roommate just announced that she's engaged to be married and it's way past my bedtime.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Hello HK !
I'm interested in whatever else you have to say. I'm also curious about some of your experiences (if you feel confident enough to post them here.) I think when it comes to anything out of the ordinary, I must be worse than zero - I'm like an event killer. I've only had two or maybe three experiences I couldn't explain. So I'm avid to find out about what they are like for people who actually have them.
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I think that the test went well
HKCavalier, I'm about to say things below. If they are wrong to your knowledge/training please let me know.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
...
when I do read so-called "scholarly" texts on these subjects I mostly find a lot of frivolous, misinformed b.s.--Gerald Gardner, I'm looking at you--and no guide/mentor/teacher has ever directed me to read a book on the subject
...
My readings on the topic of witchcraft started with Gerina Dunsich's "The Wicca Spellbook." I found it interesting
so I continued.But, when it comes to the ones I found most informative and accepting of the non-static and non-uniform believes in this religion, it was Scott Cunningham's works, "Wicca: A Guide For The Solitary Practitioner" and "Living Wicca: A Further Guild For The Solitary Practitioner." He's also done a lot of other work, including the medicinal and magical properties of herbs, etc.
Also, I have found on the net *many* people recommend, and it has been in most bibliographies that I've seen is "Three Books Of Occult Philosophy" by Henry Cornelius Agrippa of Nettesheim. It is subtitled "The Foundation Book of Western Occultism." It was written around 1500 CE and draws on many different religions. From angelic languages to the magic of numbers to the Kabbalah. I've only had the time to read the first ~100 pages as it's a *heavy* read. It's from Llewellyn's Sourcebook Series if you're interested.
At any rate, some things you may want to check out next time your in a bookstore.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Also, shamanism and witchcraft have a decidedly practical side (you might be more comfortable calling them "healing arts" than "religions), whereas the "great religions" as they are apparently experienced by the vast majority of humans seem to be largely devotional, aesthetic and conciliatory.
...
True about the western religions, but the eastern ones are far more flexible. For instance, it is common place for some to be born a Buddhist, live as a Confusist and have a Shinto funeral in Japan.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
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But what happens when our spiritual selves mature? Do we all just become atheists? For a lot of people it is next to impossible really to befriend their parents in an adult and intimate way, but does that mean it never happens?
I don't necessarily think that when we mature spiritually we become atheists.
For me, it's more of, I don't exactly buy the "Big invisible guy in the sky conjecture." Just seems silly to me. Does this mean that I explicitly say that it isn't true? Of course not, it definitly could be, but IMO, blind faith is no way to proceed. This is what my brain tells me.
When it comes to what I feel, that is a different story. I believe that we are clearly missing something. That there is far more out there than can be explained now. Science doesn't include human intuition. It's one of its limiting factors.
As soon as I started reading about Wicca I felt this warm and fuzzy feeling of belonging. It's something about caring about the world and people around me that I find appealing
It's something about walking the talk (unlike most Christians of any branch), living a way and being true to yourself.At the same time though, I don't consider myself a Wiccan. But, (again) at the same time, my beliefs do tend in that direction.
When it comes to the question, "Is there a god?" Or "Is there a god and goddess?" etc. Well, I don't like those questions. I prefer to avoid them as they inevitable lead to blind faith which always sends a shiver up my spine. To many wars have been fought because of that.
When it comes to the question of, "Can we ever befreind our parents?" I think that that is a very personal and specific question. It has to do with the foundation of that relationship and if the people are willing. It takes two to be friends.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
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