The war on Iraq has made moral cowards of us all
POSTED BY: Ghoulman
UPDATED: Sunday, August 23, 2026 21:35
VIEWED: 11894
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I've been wondering, what makes the US the good guys? OK, so maybe we had the moral high ground with Afghanistan, returning some personal freedoms and taking down Saddam Hussein who was almost as heinous as Stalin was. But who appointed us the crusaders. Why are we going into so many other countries and telling them how to live?
Maybe I missed the meeting where everyone agreed that we should be the ones who are right. How is it that our way of life is the most valid on this planet? When did we stop the killings in our own streets, the illegal drug use, the child endangerment, the homeless, the hungry, the pollution, drinking and driving, child pornography, social inequality, and prejudice? When did we become the warm moral center the rest of the world should huddle around? Just because we have 2 TVs in every household and a car in every garage, we're right? Just because we're more concerned that no child gets left behind than that our children are brought up to know something. Just because we make people coming into this country take a test to prove their worthiness to be citizens, but let any idiot born here have the capacity to vote, whether they know anything of the history of the politics in this country or not.
How can we determine what is right when we have so many voices disagreeing about it?
I love my family, I love my friends, I love my community, I like the opportunities that I have, but I think that our attitude towards the rest of the world is what causes so many people hate the U.S.
"Could be he's harboring some resentment at us for putting his man through our engine."
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Did you read the article? The vast majority of dead are women and children, and they were bombed (deliberately targeted using "smart bomb" technology). If you're willing to accept "collateral damage" of this magnitude, what makes you better than a terrorist? (Other than the fact that we're the "good guys".)
And the alternative would be to go back to "dumb" bombs and kill about 100 times more people? What are you saying? Maybe back to swords and polearms with knights on horses? Oh, but no the knights will have to march on their own since no horses should be harmed in the course of waging a war.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Don't wanna make LISSA cry, but war tends to involve killing and blowing things up.
um, can i just say, NO DUH.
i'm aware that we're at war (wait, wasn't that supposed to be over a while ago?), but that doesn't make it ok that all of these people, not to mention the soldiers, reporters, etc., are dead. i'm sad for these people. unlike you, i can't just say "oh, but that's what war is, so it's all ok."
~lissa, spwhore
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No, we are not the police of the planet - at least, we shouldn't be. But being the biggest economic power in the world (currently) has some responsibility that goes with it. Call it leadership, or call it responsibility, what you will. I hope that we are not telling other people how to live. I hope that we are not exporting our brand of democracy, or our brand of capitalism... I truly hope that we are freeing these people from a horrible tyrant and then letting the people choose what they want to do with their lives.
Yeah, maybe some day we will be able to solve all of our own problems too. But we shouldn't have to all be Jesus to start figuring out that the guy next door beating his wife and children is doing something wrong.
Also, remember last time (okay, about 3 or 4 times ago) someone named Hitler decided that blond hair and blue eyes were the perfect human specimen and we sat on our collective asses while he gased and burned a whole bunch of people (Jewish folks mostly, but many many others who didn't fit the mold either).
Quote:
Originally posted by zark1976:
I've been wondering, what makes the US the good guys? OK, so maybe we had the moral high ground with Afghanistan, returning some personal freedoms and taking down Saddam Hussein who was almost as heinous as Stalin was. But who appointed us the crusaders. Why are we going into so many other countries and telling them how to live?
Maybe I missed the meeting where everyone agreed that we should be the ones who are right. How is it that our way of life is the most valid on this planet? When did we stop the killings in our own streets, the illegal drug use, the child endangerment, the homeless, the hungry, the pollution, drinking and driving, child pornography, social inequality, and prejudice? When did we become the warm moral center the rest of the world should huddle around? Just because we have 2 TVs in every household and a car in every garage, we're right? Just because we're more concerned that no child gets left behind than that our children are brought up to know something. Just because we make people coming into this country take a test to prove their worthiness to be citizens, but let any idiot born here have the capacity to vote, whether they know anything of the history of the politics in this country or not.
How can we determine what is right when we have so many voices disagreeing about it?
I love my family, I love my friends, I love my community, I like the opportunities that I have, but I think that our attitude towards the rest of the world is what causes so many people hate the U.S.
"Could be he's harboring some resentment at us for putting his man through our engine."
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I don't think that's exactly what Hero said. It's not ok to kill people in general, even in war. Every single death is a tragedy. But if you are going to have a war, you will have to expect that people will be killed. That is the horror of war. If war was easy and no one got hurt, it wouldn't be such a difficult decision to make. We, as a people, would not hesitate to constantly wage terror on each other.
Every single live is at stake here. If you have to do a comparison, think of all of the other people that would be killed if the tyrants of the world continue to operate the way that they do - indiscriminantly killing and gassing their own citizens, their neighbors. Think of all of the other people who would be killed and maimed if all we had were imprecise technology and civil war era medicine practices.
What is going on right now is tragic. But while tragic, I think it's the best that can be done and I hope that it will open up a new door to a better world.
Quote:
Originally posted by lissa:Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Don't wanna make LISSA cry, but war tends to involve killing and blowing things up.
um, can i just say, NO DUH.
i'm aware that we're at war (wait, wasn't that supposed to be over a while ago?), but that doesn't make it ok that all of these people, not to mention the soldiers, reporters, etc., are dead. i'm sad for these people. unlike you, i can't just say "oh, but that's what war is, so it's all ok."
~lissa, spwhore
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I'm saying that if you have to kill that many civilians in order to win, maybe you're on the wrong track.
Are you old enough to remember Vietnam? We had to destroy villages in order to save them,.
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to win what? to win freedom for the other 24Million people who live there? No, no amount of human lives is acceptable, but if one more child (any child in the world, not just Iraqi - but especially so nevertheless) can grow up in this world knowing that one more tyrant is disposed so that he/she can no longer thoughtly torture or maim someone else. Then we should always do what is right - and war & killing people & destroying property should be the last resort.
Vietnam, while you kosherly watched it on TV from the comfort of your living room couch with your detached sense of reality and vague academic understanding. I lived it. But why bring that up now, the circumstances and motivation are completely different? The Vietnamese people were clearly screwed by the French government twice within the last century and their colonistic aims. Vietnamese people wanted a break and they would have gone to anyone to get a better deal and they did. I don't agree with what happened there since the people there should have decided, but there at least 6 different Viet communist parties on the ground all being ran by the same people under different guises. But what did they really want? All vieing for the same thing. Freedom.
No such thing is going on in Iraq. Don't you dare use Vietnam as your own personal byline and twist it as a side issue merely for your own gain.
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm saying that if you have to kill that many civilians in order to win, maybe you're on the wrong track.
Are you old enough to remember Vietnam? We had to destroy villages in order to save them,.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Oh, but killing 100,000 people is OK because we're the good guys.Quote:
These mainly media-based reports put the number of Iraqi civilian deaths at about 15,000 - although the basis for such an endorsement is unclear, since neither the US nor the UK admits to collecting data on Iraqi civilian casualties.
Actually, the CPA stopped the Iraqi interim government from tracking civilians deaths.
the folks at http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/
,who surely wouldn't undercount, figure 14000 to 16000 civilian casualties from all causes. Their methodology seems sound, from the description on their site.
Analyzing their spreadsheet, I get 2900 to 3500 civilians I can identify as killed by Coalition action (cluster bomb, airstrike, running roadblock, etc.), 2200 to 2300 civilians killed by by insurgents (roadside bomb, attack on police station, assassination, etc), and 9000 to 10000 either not determined (gunfire, violent death reports from hospitals, etc) or killed in crossfires (shared responsibility?).
Still a lot of people, but quite a bit less than 100,000.
General reading of reports in the news and on Globalsecurity.org also leads me to believe that the Coalition does try much harder than the insurgency to minimize 'collateral damage'. If the insurgents wouldn't do their fighting from heavily populated areas, there'd be even less. I realize that classic insurgency doctrine calls for maximizing civilian casualties, so I don't expect this to happen.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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There are no insurgents... only Iraqi citizens.
They are defending thier country from an invading Nation that is forcing it's ideology onto the people. People who desire an Islamic-state.
Quote:
Originally posted by lissa:Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Don't wanna make LISSA cry, but war tends to involve killing and blowing things up.
um, can i just say, NO DUH.
i'm aware that we're at war (wait, wasn't that supposed to be over a while ago?), but that doesn't make it ok that all of these people, not to mention the soldiers, reporters, etc., are dead. i'm sad for these people. unlike you, i can't just say "oh, but that's what war is, so it's all ok."
~lissa, spwhore
Get used to these statements Lissa, it's the sort of bullplop from a neofascist who thinks it's possible to justify 100000 dead. He is about ignoring facts and rationalizing death, suffering, and pain.
Facts like 100000 can only indicate the crime that is the American invasion of Iraq... oh I'm sorry, the invasion that's "Mission Accomplished" and not a war... oh but it's a War on Terror now... shit. Saddam would be so proud, America is well on it's way to equaling Saddams numbers during the Iran/Iraq War. Of course, the USA helped then too. And it's a little different as the 100000 dead are mostly civilians not soldiers... not that this matters to neofascists.
Neofascists are what's wrong with America - ignorance, lies, and antipathy.
The election was illegally stolen by the neofascists. Because they couldn't win the election on the merits of thier performance they have to stage a Wag the Dog event, presented with payola by the Networks, CNN, and FOX (with the glee of a Nazi propogandist), so they can continue to steal Oil and murder the citizens of Iraq without fear of prosecution.
Fascism. It's a trend.
BTW, I called Bush the "winner" a month ago. Never doubt the Ghoulman!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
to win what? to win freedom for the other 24Million people who live there? No, no amount of human lives is acceptable, but if one more child (any child in the world, not just Iraqi - but especially so nevertheless) can grow up in this world knowing that one more tyrant is disposed so that he/she can no longer thoughtly torture or maim someone else.
You're such a hero. Wow, gee we are all so impressed with your commitment to the disposing of tyrants.
Considering Saddam Hussein was a tyrant propped up by the Bush Junta all through the 80s for the Iran/Iraq War (where do you think Saddam got the Sarin and Antrax gas?), any American claim to the disposing of tyrants can't be taken as anything but utter bullshit.
Besides, Saddam was left in Bagdadh after the Gulf War by the first Bush to "stabalize the region", remember?
Quote:
Then we should always do what is right - and war & killing people & destroying property should be the last resort.
Destroying property in a wild attack was the first thing America did - Operation Rolling Thunder drove right into Bagdadh, guns a blazing! The article above talks about this. Go read it!
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Vietnam, while you kosherly watched it on TV from the comfort of your living room couch with your detached sense of reality and vague academic understanding. I lived it.
You What? You were alive when the Vietnam Conflict was on? Suuuuuuure.
Quote:
But why bring that up now,
Then why the frell did ya?
Quote:
the circumstances and motivation are completely different? The Vietnamese people were clearly screwed by the French government twice within the last century and their colonistic aims.
??? Why did you even mention this?
Quote:
Vietnamese people wanted a break and they would have gone to anyone to get a better deal and they did.
The Vietnamese, who you state you know as one of your own, wanted to be free of an Empire that controled thier lives.
Iraqies feel the same thing.
Quote:
I don't agree with what happened there since the people there should have decided, but there at least 6 different Viet communist parties on the ground all being ran by the same people under different guises. But what did they really want? All vieing for the same thing. Freedom.
Oh. Well, you finally got to the point at least.
Quote:
No such thing is going on in Iraq.
The very same thing is going on in Iraq. The Empire wants Democratic Rule but the people want an Islamic State. It's just like Vietnam - they wanted a Communist State but the Empire wanted to impose Democratic Rule.
It's always that Democracy bullplop. Trust me, it's a dodge to fool the people. America never gave democracy to any nation or people and in fact has a very long record of setting up murdering tyrants across the globe while murdering anyone who interfers with American Business Interests (that's the so called "Democracy" part).
Same shit, different pile. The USA isn't doing anything original or new in Iraq... we have seen this crap from America before. In Vietnam for example.
Quote:
Don't you dare use Vietnam as your own personal byline and twist it as a side issue merely for your own gain.
We gain something?
The comparisons between the Iraq Occupation and the Vietnam Conflict are valid. Many journalists have done so already, and as well the circumstances and facts around both conflicts have lots of paralells.
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm saying that if you have to kill that many civilians in order to win, maybe you're on the wrong track.
Are you old enough to remember Vietnam? We had to destroy villages in order to save them.
Your the best SignyM.
Yes, everyday American soldiers went out on what were called "Search and Destroy". Something Kerry actually took part in just as all soldiers did. And that's the tragedy for the soldier - US soldiers are being orde
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