George R.R. Martin calls fanfiction writing 'lazy'.

POSTED BY: DeSangro
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 5, 2004 16:04
VIEWED: 8154
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DESANGRO

Wednesday, September 29, 2004 2:04 AM

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/

First off, I do respect this guy as an author. He's an excellent writer and he can build an impressively detailed fictional world, not to mention creating some great (and sometimes greatly disturbing) characters. And he does offer some good advice on his FAQ of his official website.

But this one statement of his I found to be... disagreeable. And the sad thing is that I was thinking of writing some Sandor Clegane fic. . .

Quote:
Write every day, even if it is only a page or two. The more you write, the better you'll get. But don't write in my universe, or Tolkien's, or the Marvel universe, or the Star Trek universe, or any other borrowed background. Every writer needs to learn to create his own characters, worlds, and settings. Using someone else's world is the lazy way out. If you don't exercise those "literary muscles," you'll never develop them.

The first two sentences are valid advice. If you want to write, you've got to write, and practice at it. But I do take issue with the 'borrowed background' part.

Let's see: is it more lazy to draw a picture or sculpt a statue of Severus Snape than it is to do a picture or statue of an original character? Was it more lazy of Peter Jackson and his friends to do an adaption of J.R.R. Tolkien's novels than it would be for them to do a completely original fantasy story? Was it more lazy for Shakespeare to have ripped off ideas from older plays and legends and myths than to have come up with completely original ideas, situations, and characters?

Frankly, I don't think that you can look at the whole of the fanfic world and say that the people who write in it are taking the lazy way out. There IS truly lazy fanfic, in which the author doesn't care enough to keep the characters IC, or doesn't take the time to invent OCs who fit seamlessly into the established universe, or don't even bother to spell correctly. THAT is truly lazy writing. But there can be 'lazy' writing-- lifeless prose, flat characters, time-worn cliches-- in published books as well.
I've read bad fanfic, and I've read good fanfic. I have, on occasion, read great fanfic. I just wish that some non-fanfic writers would realize that there is a difference.

KELLAINA

Wednesday, September 29, 2004 2:30 AM

I agree with you. I have on occasion read fanfic that rivalled or even surpassed the pro fic. Going with Martin's logic means that any 'professional' writer who writes in the Star Trek or Marvel or Star Wars or Buffy universes is 'lazy.' Those authors are also taking established characters and places and many of them do a fantastic job (some not-so-fantastic but that's another thread )

I don't know much about George R.R. Martin, maybe he feels threatened?

If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. -"Angel"

DRE

Wednesday, September 29, 2004 3:21 AM

There's been some talk over the years because a lot of "writers" (and I use the term loosely) who do fanfiction on the internet have been trying to promote and sell themselves off such works, especially the majority of these fic-writers who are common among fantasy/sci-fi genres.

While this is in no way a generalization, it's something I've noticed a lot of authors I've met and listened to talk about; the proliferation of it across the net has led to a degree of authors wondering why they work hard at their craft and then people come along and reap off that craft.

Terry Brooks once posted on his site that if someone wrote a piece involving his world(s), &c., he had no problem with it so long as it was simply a personal piece meant to encourage and develop the craft. But he had a lot of people writing (relatively poor, in some cases) fanfiction that got stapled to his name (people assumed these would be related to, endorsed by, etc, the author(s) involved), and it really can damage an established writer.

On a side note, most writers who write in Star Wars, Buffy, &c, are already published writers, and they get hired (or request) to do a piece for that setting. Most of the time the work is also subject to the studio/publisher's eye first. In the Star Wars novels, for example, the fella who wrote about the rise of the cloned Palpatine wanted the dark jedi clone of Joruus C'Baoth to be a clone of Obi-Wan, but Lucas(Arts or Film, I think) said that wouldn't fit a vision of the story George Lucas had, so he had to rewrite the background of that element.

I'm all for fanfiction as a developmental tool of the craft; I went to school for English and writing. I see some good stuff (sometimes excellent), and I see some bad stuff. I think it's good practice. When I used to be on some writing forums/mail groups, I saw some people who only wrote fanfiction and were appalled when other people would say, "This is good practice, now write -your- story. Something from -your- world." Some people consider themselves serious writers through imitation: that's what I wouldn't like.

I think that's the bulk of Martin's message really - good practice, but don't let it get to your head.

IKIYO.

DRE

MANIACNUMBERONE

Wednesday, September 29, 2004 3:29 AM

I must defend my roleplaying now. I think it all depends upon what your goal is. If you are writing with George's goal in mind, to have your own world to create in, then great; but if you have a different goal, say enjoying a universe already created, and having fun, it doesn't really seem lazy to me. I write in the Firefly "gunrunners" roleplaying game, and I do it because I love the universe of Firefly. I just really love Firefly. Nothing wrong with indulging in a great verse. I am not after conquering new literary worlds right now. When I am, you might hear about it, or see it on shelves in your favorite store.

-------------------------------------------
Inara: Who's winning?
Simon: I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
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SUCCATASH

Wednesday, September 29, 2004 3:55 AM

I want to be a writer!

I love to write! I write all the time!

But I don't write fanfic. Just ficfan.

I like to make up my own stories.

Fanfic is great but GRRM was simply giving advice on how to really make it in the biz.

If your goal is to create a fantasy world and be a famous author, then do it! Get crackin'!

If your goal is to play and express yourself using a tv show you love, then it's not lazy, it's not even the issue.

JEBBYPAL

Wednesday, September 29, 2004 4:03 AM

Well, for those who haven't bothered to visit Martin's site, I think this needs a little qualifier. If you go to his "what I'm reading" page, you'll eventually see this:

Quote:
A life in Comic Fandom.....Soon after, strange little magazines printed in faded purple ink began to show up in my mail box. That was my introduction to the wonderful world of comicdom, then in its infancy. Before long, I was writing for those fanzines myself; turning out prose epics (I couldn't draw, so I couldn't do comic strips) about the White Raider, Manta Ray, Dr. Weird, and Garizan, the Mechanical Warrior. I never met Bill Schelly (we were both high school kids, him in Pittsburgh and me in Bayonne, New Jersey), nor even corresponded with him .. but I certainly knew his name, and we had many acquaintances (and fanzines) in common.

So while he does say that fanfic is "lazy", he doesn't disapprove of it wholy. I think that he is trying to encourage individuals who have a dream or passion of pursuing fiction writing as a career to start working on their own worlds as soon as possible.

Honestly, as a fairly recent fanfic writer and someone who enjoys it immensely, I have to agree. While fanfic writing is a good way to hone one's handle of literary devices (especially dialogue!), it is easy for it to become a crutch. If one becomes to comfortable with established characters, they will put off the day of creating their own characters and their own worlds. Granted, fan books are published in highly commercial fandoms (star trek), but most of their authors are established authors in their own right.

That said, I love fanfic. It has enabled my reading addiction without making me poor or making me lug books back and forth to the library. It also gave me a place to stretch my wings, try it myself, and get feedback. But I don't view it as novel writing persay. And I realize, and I think Martin was trying to point out, that every hour and day I spend writing fanfic is another moment I could have devoted to creating something original.

The Strawberry Monkey who defends tight pants everywhere!

DESANGRO

Wednesday, September 29, 2004 4:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jebbypal:
Well, for those who haven't bothered to visit Martin's site, I think this needs a little qualifier. If you go to his "what I'm reading" page, you'll eventually see this:

Quote:
A life in Comic Fandom.....Soon after, strange little magazines printed in faded purple ink began to show up in my mail box. That was my introduction to the wonderful world of comicdom, then in its infancy. Before long, I was writing for those fanzines myself; turning out prose epics (I couldn't draw, so I couldn't do comic strips) about the White Raider, Manta Ray, Dr. Weird, and Garizan, the Mechanical Warrior. I never met Bill Schelly (we were both high school kids, him in Pittsburgh and me in Bayonne, New Jersey), nor even corresponded with him .. but I certainly knew his name, and we had many acquaintances (and fanzines) in common.

So while he does say that fanfic is "lazy", he doesn't disapprove of it wholy. I think that he is trying to encourage individuals who have a dream or passion of pursuing fiction writing as a career to start working on their own worlds as soon as possible.

Ah... now I feel a little twinge of shame for having jumped on him the way I did over this. . .

Now I see that he's just like us.

True. But I don't think that I have many dreams of writing professional stuff. My strength, I feel, is in sculpting. So writing is just a hobby for me. Fanfic writing has been my dominant form over the past 6 or 7 years, and so I probably should dust off those original ideas, write them up, and post them on Fiction.Press.

JEBBYPAL

Wednesday, September 29, 2004 4:21 AM

By all means go with your strengths. And I was by no means busting on those individuals who pursue fanfic writing as solely a hobby...they are in no way lesser cause gosh knows, I consume enough of it! Just wanted to make sure Martin wasn't branded as "one of those authors" who protest the use of his "worlds" in fanfic writing homages.

Good luck w/ your sculpting, and writing if you choose to dust off those ideas.

The Strawberry Monkey who defends tight pants everywhere!

WINTERFELL

Wednesday, September 29, 2004 9:36 AM

I cannot recall if he actually said it himself, but I know it is very much frowned upon to write GRRM fanfic in the GRRM community. none of the boards I go to which deal with his work even allow fan fic posting, which I personally agree with. Sometimes, when you take that much time and effort to create your own pretty much original ideas and characters, it sucks to have someone else come in and start using them for their own stories.

I know when I spoke to him about my band, he only stated as long as I wasn't breaking copyright law, he supported me 100%. This would mean, I can write about characters in a book, whether it be tolkien or GRRM, or whoever, I can write about the events in a book.. as long as I do not 1) claim that these are my own ideas. and 2) do not write new and original stories/lyrics/whatever containing these characters. Seems fair to me. If you want to see an author go crazy on his fans for writing fan fic, check out Terry Goodkind. A few years ago after taking some criticism for some style changes in his 5th book, he went a little nuts. Now his website is filled with philosophical, political, and egotistical ranting. The interviews he does would be laughable if it wasn't so sad that this guy used to be able to write terrifically. But yeah, Terry will actually sue you if you write fanfic of his characters.

I often wonder if some of the great fan fic authors out there would just change the names and tweak the personalities of their characters and settings just a bit, if we wouldn't have alot more quality stories/books/writers out there.

~~Robb of Winterfell~~
~ http://winterfell.org ~
High Fantasy Heavy Metal

CORNCOBB

Tuesday, October 5, 2004 12:03 AM

As a writer of fanfic and original stories I can say that I sort of see this guys point about writing original work being better practice but I've found that with my Buffy and Angel fanfic the characters have really come alive for me. I'm not just copying them from Joss' work exactly as he conceived them, I've been stearing them in new directions and more often than not it's like the characters are deciding for themselves what happens next. sounds weird but it's true. I feel that writing these stories has given me valuable experience in writing stories about fully realistic characters and next time I write an original piece of fiction my own characters will probably be more real because of that experience. So, in that way, fanfic writing is good practice, but eventually, if you aspire to be a professional writer, its probably a good idea to put that practice to use and try creating your own characters

"Gorramit Mal... I've forgotten my line."

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