Bush by numbers: Four years of double standards
POSTED BY: Ghoulman
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 9, 2004 19:16
VIEWED: 9195
PAGE 2 of 9
From The Independent UK, url was provided. It's a respected publication, in case you aren't familiar with it.
I'm just wondering, when did facts become propaganda?
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If Bush and Kerry had a public blog debate, that would be cool. But I can see Bush getting so mad he types, "Here is my address. Meet me on the White House lawn by the flagpole and I'll kick your ass."
On a more serious note, I agree with Rue on just about everything but I've read Geezer's posts and he thinks deeply and he's not a dumb ass. I agree with just about everything Ghoulman says but in this case I would venture to say Geezer is not afraid of the White House.
Rue and a few eloquent others just need to keep writing and hopefully Geezer and many more will help get us a new president this election.
"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."
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Later on I did notice that Geezer's address was Virginia. GEEZER, there's no slam coming up about that. But it got me to wondering, could there be a culture clash going on? Some topics and opinions that one party takes for granted as OK causing unintended discomfort to the other?
I don't think anyone can moderate anyone else's input, but I would be unhappy if it kept people off the board. Geezer has a lot to say, but even though I sometimes disagree, I would miss hearing it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
From The Independent UK, url was provided. It's a respected publication, in case you aren't familiar with it.
I'm just wondering, when did facts become propaganda?
Facts can always be used as propaganda. Given the time (which I won't take, BTW) one could probably come up with a similar list of negative numbers for Sen. Kerry, or most anyone else, e.g. 86 - Percent of public committee meetings Sen. Kerry has missed.
As for the Independent, headlines like "Kerry's former ally delights right wing with his treachery" and "Will American voters fall for the confidence tricks of President Bush a second time?" leave little doubt about their position.
Edit: Just remembered the classic example of propaganda, from back in the cold war era.
There was a drag race between a Russian and an American car, which the American car won. The headline in Pravda read: "Russian car finishes second in great race. American car next to last."
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
If Bush and Kerry had a public blog debate, that would be cool. But I can see Bush getting so mad he types, "Here is my address. Meet me on the White House lawn by the flagpole and I'll kick your ass."
On a more serious note, I agree with Rue on just about everything but I've read Geezer's posts and he thinks deeply and he's not a dumb ass. I agree with just about everything Ghoulman says but in this case I would venture to say Geezer is not afraid of the White House.
Rue and a few eloquent others just need to keep writing and hopefully Geezer and many more will help get us a new president this election.
"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."
Thanks for the kind words, 'Tash. I have to admit that the events in Beslan had me self-medicating with Dewar's last night. I don't usually call people out over internet insults.
One interesting feature of on-line chat is the propensity of folk to believe that if you don't agree 100% with their chosen line of B.S., you must believe the other side's line of B.S. Some of us just call it all B.S., no matter which bull drops it.
Since most of the droppings here seem to come from the bull on the left, those are the ones that are available for my B.S. detector to detect, and me to comment on. This leads the people mentioned above to label me a "bushie", a "neo-con", or in extreme cases, a "ball-less git". Rest assured that on sites where the rightmost bull has more successful BMs, I have been called "Hippie" and "tree hugger".
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Geezer, me old RPing bud - you do love being the Devil's Advocate and are drawn to debate like a moth to light! 
I say keep 'em on their toes! I agree with you: Statistics can be manipulated to suit the politics of the reviewer. Heh, not to mention history ... you have to read as many sides as you can to build a ... more complete picture.
However, I do believe {Even within my confirmed status as patriotic Desert Storm veteran) that Mr. Bush is not the man I want in the White House ... well actually more so that his cronies need to be removed.
But our choices are woefully inadequate
Maybe there DOES need (as joked about in "Demolition Man" - The Schwarzenegger Presidential Library) to be an amendment to allow a naturalized foreigner to run for President! 
For those far too entrenched in politics and have thusly attenuated their sense of humor - I am NOT endorsing Governor Schwarzenegger for President. Mostly because I have not followed his policies and career in running California.
But I DO state this: Whatever your beliefs/politics etc. - PLEASE VOTE this year!!! Don't assume your 'voices' cannot be heard. The ubiquitous "They" (whichever side of the fences {yes, plural} you fall on) hope to profit by American Apathy.
Let us be chad-less {so to speak} this time -- and not allow room for another "Indecision 2000" to reoccur in 2004!
"Remember, there is only ONE absolute - There ARE NO absolutes!!!"
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first page of titles from WORLD NEWS, UK Independent. Yes, you'll find a small number (two) of unflattering adjectives. But on the whole, it highlights the important topics, not infotainment, pablum, or the 'official' government line. While you claim one (tho not you) 'could' come up with as many unflattering numbers about Kerry (over the same number of years?), I say randomly throw out half of what the UKI says. It's still a lot. And look at the seriousness of each one. Finally, from a Russian grad student, he said that the propaganda in the old USSR was never as bad as what he sees in the US. He's amazed, and terrified, how well it has been done here.
Bush and Kerry exchange blows over military service
04 September 2004
With the final echoes of the Republican convention barely faded, George Bush and John Kerry traded fierce blows in a neck-and-neck battle set to continue at fever pitch until election day on 2 November.
Clinton to have open-heart surgery after chest pains
04 September 2004
Bill Clinton was admitted to hospital in New York yesterday suffering from chest pains, and the former US president has been scheduled to undergo heart bypass surgery today.
Police clear out squatters as new Iraqi state starts to flex its muscles
04 September 2004
"The police are going to kill me unless you take me with you," said Ahmed Hussein in a terrified voice, as half a dozen angry Iraqi policemen closed in on him.
Frances takes a break in the Bahamas but Florida still braced for hurricane
04 September 2004
The whole of Florida was watching and waiting last night, trying to determine where Hurricane Frances - packing 130mph winds - was going to strike sometime later today.
Bad luck, brother - it's the wrong time of year for a Gujarati wristband
04 September 2004
There has been panic in the Indian state of Gujarat after rumours that a holy thread worn around the wrist for protection by Indian men had been tied at the wrong time mistakenly this year and would bring bad luck instead of good.
French hostages 'handed to intermediaries'
04 September 2004
Complex and secretive moves were under way last night to complete the rescue of two French journalists kidnapped in Iraq two weeks ago.
'Terrorism affects us all and we have to show complete solidarity with Russia'
04 September 2004
We will be expressing solidarity with President Putin. We hope we can see a safe solution to this crisis. We have to recognise from this appalling situation that terrorism affects us all and we have to show complete solidarity.
Republican party animals
04 September 2004
The fanatical followers of George Bush marched into Manhattan, the liberal heart of America, last Bush by numbers: Four years of double standards
03 September 2004
Scourge of terrorists everywhere
Bush: We fight not for pride, not for power, but because lives are at stake
03 September 2004
Portraying himself as a clear-minded and decisive leader, George Bush last night pledged that if elected for a second term, he would continue the fight against terrorists "not for pride, not for power," but to keep America and the world a safe place to live.
Hurricane twice size of Charley to hit US
03 September 2004
Around two-and-a-half million residents of Florida were yesterday told to evacuate their homes and seek safety as the threat of Hurricane Frances edged ever closer, its menacing presence less than 400 miles away.
Hopes for baldness cure as hairless mouse grows 'fur'
03 September 2004
Thousands of pounds have been spent and hours have painful surgery have been endured. But man's eternal quest for a full head of hair could at last be at an end.
Sodomy conviction quashed for Malaysian reformer
03 September 2004
Anwar Ibrahim, Malaysia's most prominent political prisoner, was wheeled out of prison yesterday and set free after the country's highest court quashed a sodomy charge against the former deputy prime Feminist anger as Bryant rape case is dropped
03 September 2004
The dismissal of rape charges against the basketball superstar Kobe Bryant caused r
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Facts can always be used as propaganda.
I think that the key word here is "used". This is quite different from what actually was posted in the first post of this thread. There was a point by point assessment of what GWB *has* done. There wasn't really any judgment, just the facts, ie:
2 Percentage of the world's population that is British.
2 Percentage of the world's oil used by Britain.
5 Percentage of the world's population that is American.
25 Percentage of the world's oil used by America.
This means that the either the US uses too much oil or the Brits are quite conservative with there's. I would conclude that the Brits are conservative with there oil, *but* given the *large* difference in percent usage vs percent population that the americans as well *do* use *far* too much. NOTE: This isn't a comment on GWB or Kerry, it's a comment on the US in general.
This *is* a fact, period. Is it good, bad? Does it really matter? These are things that might be considered propaganda when someone *interprets* these facts, which IMO, hasn't been done in the above mentioned post. You do that yourself.
It is a grand list, eh? How one could support someone with this on his resume I do not know. And if the opposition could come up with one for Kerry, then I'd gladly read that as well. Though from what I've seen, I don't really think that'll happen.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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The most dangerous problem with this "everything is propaganda" argument is that it pretty much renders the possibility of the government doing anything wrong mute. Anything the least bit damning is labeled "propaganda."
A list like the above, is mainly a bunch of facts. That they imply that G. W.'s got "a lot of 'splaining to do" does not magically turn them into "propaganda." If you care about the things his administration is destroying then G. W. is bad news. That is not a distortion, it's an interpretation. But the "everything is propaganda" types will say that all interpretation is distortion.
You think this could be a sneaky result of intellectual trickle-down from quantum physics? a cheesy distortion of the uncertainty principle? All observation alters data, ergo, all (observed) facts are propaganda? The act of reading the list renders it propaganda? God help us.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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I agree. "Everything is propaganda" is a pointless argument.
Geezer- instead of dismissing the criticisms as "propagand" you should be asking:
Are the individual facts true?
Are they "representative" of the totality?
Are they significant?
If the answers are "yes" (and and I think they are) then we should dispense with meaningless (and misleading) generalizations and figure out what to do about it.
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