Real World Event Discussions

A thread for Democrats Only

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SECOND

Wednesday, May 9, 2018 5:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

We already tried that here, as the Original Colonies. The disastrous consequences of that experiment were the widespread starvation and destitution, requiring the Pilgrims get bailed out by the Indians: the First Thanksgiving. Too bad this excellent example of communism isn't more widely taught, when our children can still learn.

Effort to revive coal tests Rick Perry's devotion to free markets
www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Perry-caught-between-free-ma
rket-past-and-White-12896348.php

While governor of Texas, Rick Perry was approached by a group of power executives who warned that unless state regulators took steps to raise electricity rates, power plants across the state would close and regular blackouts could follow.

But Perry, a fierce advocate of keeping government out of the marketplace, turned them down.

“He was heavily lobbied,” recalled Ken Anderson, a former Texas Public Utility Commissioner appointed by Perry. “Ultimately, he said, ‘We’re going to rely on the market,’ and that’s what we did.” (The plants closed, but there were no blackouts.)

But since taking over as secretary of the U.S. Department of Energy, Perry’s devotion to the magic of markets has waned as he advocates for the same sort of government intervention he avoided in Austin to prop up the struggling nuclear and coal power plants.

That has put him on the opposite side of longtime allies in politics and business, who fear Perry is betraying his free market principles to win a victory for President Donald Trump, who unequivocally pledged to revive the fortunes of coal.

The Energy Department is expected to grant a request by the Ohio power company FirstEnergy Solutions that the agency use emergency powers designed to prevent blackouts to, instead, increase power rates for coal and nuclear plants. Perry last year made a similar proposal, asking federal regulators to adopt rules that would have paid coal and nuclear plants more for their power than other generators.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Wednesday, May 9, 2018 7:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

So ... what do I propose?
. . .
So, SECOND - here are the questions you need to address to respond to my post: what do you think of re-purposing the military to 1) provide valuable skills to the members, 2) provide jobs, and 3) perform important unaddressed tasks to society and the nation?
. . .
And not only have I NOT proposed a workers utopia, I haven't called for a redistribution of wealth. All I've proposed so far is a re-purposing of tax dollars already collected.

Since, AS ALWAYS, your post neither accurately portrays mine nor responds to it, I will assume that you're strawmanning (lying) and/ or changing the subject. AS ALWAYS.
There is so much wrong with how you write, 1kiki. It is a great, if you were running for political office or for a CEO’s job. You are letting the ‘Verse know what you will do with the power. You show that you are touchy, bossy, and obnoxious. So much wrong. Now I will show you what I want to write about. It is not about you, 1kiki:

A Nobel laureate explains why we get the bad economic policies we deserve
https://qz.com/1140481

“People who voted for Trump, or Brexit, or Le Pen and Mélenchon in France are by and large very concerned about their future with robots, with rising debts, with inequality and unemployment. We have neglected some people, the losers of globalization, and we have a society that’s more and more unequal. It might get worse, unfortunately, with new technology.

When people are afraid or upset, they also tend to dismiss their current governments and the experts. They want a big change, which is often supplied by populists who offer fairytales and the wrong policies. People are trying to grab something that will give them hope.

We get the economic policies we deserve. And as long as a lack of economic understanding prevails among the general public, making good policy choices will take a lot of political courage.”

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Wow. Great article, Nobel Laurette.

Full of critique, but severely lacking in any actual fixes to the problems.

A common theme among Democrats.

No wonder people fall for fairy tales.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

SIGNYM

Wednesday, May 9, 2018 8:22 PM

Quote:
You show that you are touchy, bossy, and obnoxious.- SECOND

Says one of the touchiest, bossiest, and most obnoxious people here?

I noticed, SECOND, that when you run out of articles to kipe, you resort to ... wait for it ... personal attack. Try not to do that in future, OK?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

SIGNYM

Wednesday, May 9, 2018 9:10 PM

AND NOW FOR THE ARTICLE THAT SECOND LOVES, WHICH ONCE AGAIN BLAMES THE VICTIM

Quote:
Over the past decade, reams of research by economists has been devoted to investigating why they failed to foresee the financial crisis, among other things economics has recently gotten wrong. This soul-searching has produced new theories, models, and policies, but it hasn’t fully repaired the reputation of the field. As time passes and the effects of the crisis fade, people still find it hard to trust economists.

OMFG, what a self-important set of excuses.

1) Where ARE those "new theories, models, and policies"? Has anyone heard of them?
2)More importantly, has anyone seen them put into action? Or has it been just more of the same? ... yanno, the theories, models, and policies which nothing but rationalizations which CONTINUE to make the rich richer? Because, yanno, until people see some REAL benefit from these new-all-new theories, they will continue to view them as mere rationalizations.

Quote:
The latest effort to improve public opinion

But not actual performance? The this is just a PR push

Quote:
of economics comes from Jean Tirole, winner of the Nobel prize in economics in 2014. The Frenchman’s latest book, Economics for the Common Good (Princeton University Press), is a 560-page manifesto on how the profession can get back on track.
Tirole_EconomicsForTheCommonGood

The timing of the book—published in English this month after its original release in French last year—is pertinent. The relationship between economics and politics is starting to unravel. Over the past year, many have sought to explain Brexit, the election of Donald Trump, and the rise of far-right and far-left politics in Europe using economic arguments. But it’s becoming clear that economics alone does not explain the situation. If the questions at the root of public life are no longer answered by the famous political dictum, “It’s the economy, stupid,” where does that leave economists?

Because it's STILL the economy, stupid. Just because some incredibly phonied-up figures about unemployment and GDP have been polished up to an incredible shine doesn't mean that people still aren't suffering. After all, just look at personal indebtedness.

Quote:
Amid a general backlash against “elites,” economists must prove their worth. Tirole starts by trying to demystify what they actually do.

Provide rationalizations based on untenable assumptions for the TPTB to get richer and richer?

Quote:
He then addresses the challenges the field should be tackling, from inequality and climate change to labor market policies and the future of Europe.

He also isn’t afraid to turn the tables. “We get the economic policies we deserve,” he writes. “And as long as a lack of economic understanding prevails among the general public, making good policy choices will take a lot of political courage.” This concern shared by the Bank of England’s chief economist, Andy Haldane, who recently said the UK suffers from “twin deficits” in public understanding and trust in economics.

The Bank of England is one of the major promoters of debt as a way of life, an enforcer of "interest rate apartheid", and a principal architect of "the way things are", so go suck on it, Haldane.

Quote:
Tirole’s book is ultimately a defense of economics, although it acknowledges that it needs to reconnect with other social sciences like psychology, anthropology, history, and political science. This is something Tirole encourages as chairman of the Institute for Advanced Study in Toulouse, where experts from a wide range of disciplines work together.

Quartz spoke with Tirole in London about what goes wrong when we believe what we want to believe at the expense of good economics. The conversation has been edited and condensed.

Well, since the intro was just one giant fawning rationalization, I can hardly expect the article to be any better.

Quote:
Quartz: This book is a big departu

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SECOND

Thursday, May 10, 2018 12:25 AM

Trump has no Plan B on Iran beyond "not Obama’s Plan A."

Plan B’s Step 1 is terminating the Iran Deal.
Step 3 is Iran complying with all Trump’s demands.
Step 2? Step 2 is a wee bit hazy.

There are at least two possibilities for Step 2:
A) Starve Iran into submission, just like with North Korea.
B) Bomb Iran into submission, just like with North Vietnam.

Those both worked great! There are other possibilities too, like encouraging the entire Middle East to engage in a brutal war of Sunni vs. Shia. Really, there are loads of options here. Just ask John Bolton.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/05/09/there-is-no-p
lan-b-on-iran/?utm_term=.5b715861c63d

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL TWO: We’re in constant conversations with the Europeans on this.

QUESTION: But you don’t know at this point? You don’t know? You didn’t get to that in your discussions, what’s going to happen?

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL ONE: We did not talk about a Plan B in our discussions because we were focused on negotiating a supplemental agreement [to the JCPOA], so we did not — we did not talk about Plan B.

In other words, the Trump administration has no idea what it is doing other than “not Plan A.”

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SECOND

Thursday, May 10, 2018 12:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

SIX was right, this was an INCREDIBLY stupid article, it's really just a rehash of Yanis Varoufakis, and I gave up listening to HIM after one or two readings. There are a lot better better books out there on the failures of modern economics. I'll see if I can find those titles and post them; it's a lot better than reading this drivel.

I am eager to know what authors on economics you recommend. Why did you not immediately give your authors rather than spread contempt? Once you get around to it, you ought to stand behind your recommendations, not just throw some names out there that you haven't read. I want to know who you get your ideas from about how economics works.

I find on my shelf the first book I every bought on economics: "Almost Everyone’s Guide to Economics" – Printed 1978, by John Kenneth Galbraith, the famous liberal. My copy is the Consumers Union Edition for Consumer Reports Readers. The book remains true for me, if not for you.
www.amazon.com/Almost-Everyones-Economics-Kenneth-Galbraith/dp/0395271
177/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SIGNYM

Thursday, May 10, 2018 1:41 AM

Quote:

SIX was right, this was an INCREDIBLY stupid article, it's really just a rehash of Yanis Varoufakis, and I gave up listening to HIM after one or two readings. There are a lot better better books out there on the failures of modern economics. I'll see if I can find those titles and post them; it's a lot better than reading this drivel. - SIGNY

I am eager to know what authors on economics you recommend. Why did you not immediately give your authors rather than spread contempt?- SECOND

Because I wanted you to know that not only do I have different ideas than his, I have also considered - AND REJECTED- his. In other words, my ideas encompass his.

Quote:
Once you get around to it, you ought to stand behind your recommendations, not just throw some names out there that you haven't read. I want to know who you get your ideas from about how economics work.- SECOND

A book that I have recommended many times on this website already is "The Worldly Philosophers" by Heilbroner. It's a classic about the history of economic theories which not only presents the theories but also the issues of the day and the social and political problems that the theories were trying to address. From Adam Smith thru Karl Marx and Keynes. I read it when I was 12 (in the early 60's) and there have been many editions since then. I can't speak to later editions, but the one I read was profoundly interesting. I recommend it highly.

There's another book that I liked really well; unfortunately I can't remember the title or the author and we're in a midst of a home renovation so our bookcases are all in boxes. But it was written by an "academic" economist, who went through the tenets of basic modern economy theory and showed how each fundamental assumption was flawed. For example, one of the tenets is that economic actors are atomistic, rational, and all-knowing (or indeed prescient) participants. These characteristics are the basis of the modern supply-demand-price curves. But each one of those characteristics (atomistic, rational, prescient) are fundamentally wrong: humans are herd animals and tend to to what others are doing (including panic-buying and panic-selling), we are clearly not rational, nor are we possessed of all of the facts/ ultimate outcomes surrounding our choices. ALSO, economic theory mathematics rests on supply-demand-price reaching equilibrium, which it never does. In addition, while it's easy to calculate the equilibrium for a single item, it's much more difficult to calculate equilibria when multiple items are competing against each other. So Nobel Prize-winning advances in economics, such mathematically "solving" general equilibria matrixes, are in reality pretty meaningless. And finally, modern economists don't take "bank money creation" into account. So overall, academic modern economics is pretty pointless.

That second book was also a great book, I just wish I could find it.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

6IXSTRINGJACK

Thursday, May 10, 2018 2:58 AM

Quote:
Academic economics is the problem. What this man is saying that if people aren't sufficiently propagandized, it's hard to jam the stick up their ass.

Propoganda = Lube. I love it.

Quote:
So, what is his solution to the problem? "Educate" people more, so that they accept their insecure station in life with more meekness?

Why do I get the feeling that if our government actually ever got around to finally teaching our kids important things like economics before they went to college that this is EXACTLY what the main take away from these classes would be?

Quote:
The reality is the roboticization/ unemployment doesn't HAVE to be the policy, but it WILL be if the main driver of economics is PROFIT and "efficiency" is the excuse. As long as PROFIT is the main goal and people continue to believe in the fairy tale of "efficiency", people will continue to be screwed. So far, he hasn't addressed that.

Six Sigma. I've been speaking against it for years now. The Six Sigma Doctrine: "Take away everything that once made a job enjoyable. All perks, and as many financial bonuses as possible. Catalyze hard work not through rewarding merit, but through fear of losing their jobs. But always be sure to use big, happy sounding words that usually mean the exact opposite of what you're saying. After all, the people are merely cattle. You're doing this all for their own good."

Do Right, Be Right. :)

SECOND

Thursday, May 10, 2018 3:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

A book that I have recommended many times on this website already is "The Worldly Philosophers" by Heilbroner. . . . I read it when I was 12 (in the early 60's) and there have been many editions since then. I can't speak to later editions, but the one I read was profoundly interesting. I recommend it highly.

There's another book that I liked really well; unfortunately I can't remember the title or the author . . . So overall, academic modern economics is pretty pointless.

That second book was also a great book, I just wish I could find it.

Signym, take this as a strawman if you want, but I am out of time:

Heilbroner wrote The Worldly Philosophers as young man for the 12 year old Signym.
https://thepiratebay.org/torrent/12143671/The_Worldly_Philosophers_._R
obert_L._Heilbroner_._epub
www.amazon.com/Worldly-Philosophers-Economic-Thinkers-Seventh/dp/06848
6214X/

As an old man, Heilbroner's preferred capitalist model was the highly redistributionist welfare states of Scandinavia; he stated that his model society was "a slightly idealized Sweden." The typical Democrat, including me, has no objections to America following Scandinavian examples. But Republicans have many violent objections, making impossible America becoming a big Denmark with a low poverty rate, healthcare for everyone, and not at war all around the world.
www.salon.com/2010/06/15/conservatives_economics_european/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Heilbroner

Then Signym read another book, that can’t be found at the moment. Now Signym rejects most economics theories as unrealistic and replaced them with what? With nothing! I am sure that Scandinavia, especially Heilbroner’s slightly idealized Sweden, did not achieve prosperity by rejected the same economic explanations rejected by Signym. Scandinavians are not tweeting "NO EVIDENCE", which is very dissimilar to Signym, Trump, and the Republican voters.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SIGNYM

Thursday, May 10, 2018 11:00 AM

Quote:
As an old man, Heilbroner's preferred capitalist model was the highly redistributionist welfare states of Scandinavia; he stated that his model society was "a slightly idealized Sweden."-

It doesn't matter what Heilbroner likes, or doesn't like. As HISTORY book and an explanation of what various economic theorists were trying to solve, it was very informative. you wanted to know what I recommended. I STILL recommend the book. Pick any edition you like: you'll know infinitely more than you do now.

Quote:
Then Signym read another book, that can’t be found at the moment.

But I recapped some of the arguments in the book for you, and if you were interested in actually being informed instead of bitching endlessly, you would have learned something from that too.

Quote:
Now Signym rejects most economics theories as unrealistic and replaced them with what? With nothing!

Not true. I've posted extensively about what I think America needs to do. Apparently, you "forgot" it.

Quote:
I am sure that Scandinavia, especially Heilbroner’s slightly idealized Sweden, did not achieve prosperity by rejected [sic] the same economic explanations rejected by Signym. Scandinavians are not tweeting "NO EVIDENCE", which is very dissimilar [???] to Signym, Trump, and the Republican voters.

Norway is making a lot of money from North Sea oil. Sweden exports arms, machinery, motor vehicles, paper products, pulp and wood, iron, steel products, chemicals. Denmark is self-sufficient in energy producing oil, natural gas, wind and bio energy. Its principal exports are machinery, chemicals and food products. Iceland went thru its own financial crisis and is busy digging out of its previous debt by exporting fish.

ALL of the nations are exporting nations, with a positive or neutral balance of trade,
NONE of the nations adopted the Euro, which says something about sovereignty.

You can't have a "redistributive" economy if you don't have any production to redistribute.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

America is an oligarchy
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876