The Seven Minutes

POSTED BY: HKCavalier
UPDATED: Sunday, July 25, 2004 06:57
VIEWED: 11538
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HKCAVALIER

Tuesday, July 13, 2004 5:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by meleaux:
I love firefly and I love calling myself a browncoat. I am sorry to say that threads like these make me sad to visit this websight.

The sad thing is I feel the same way and I started this thread! I really wanted to know what other intelligent, well-informed people thought about those 7 minutes. Why that can't be discussed calmly and respectfully I do not know.

If you guys want to argue about who you're gonna vote for in the next election and why, please start a thread about that. Maybe there should be a new category created: Political Troll Country for folks who want to turn every thread into a BUSH SUCKS/BUSH ROCKS shouting match.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

SOUPCATCHER

Tuesday, July 13, 2004 10:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX
But your comment about Farenheit 9/11 rung true with me. I saw the movie and I'm a rabid Bush administration hater, but I had the same reaction to the protracted focus on him waiting. I felt sympathy for the man. I wonder if that's not backfired on Moore a little. Did anyone else have this reaction?

I had pretty much the same reaction that you did in that I felt sorry for Bush. I also wondered if this scene would portray Bush in a sympathetic light.

But then I started comparing Bush's reaction on 9/11 with Giuliani's. As much as I may disagree with Rudy's politics, I will always have a soft spot in my heart for him because of his actions on that horrible day. He led. His city had taken a hit, his people had been attacked, and he rolled up his sleeves and he got to work. That's what I expect of my President. And that's what I didn't get.

I found this quote from General Sir Michael Rose, Former Commander of the UN Protection Force in Bosnia, particularly damning:

"I believe that this film will utterly destroy any residual confidence that the American people might have in the credentials of George W. Bush as a decisive war leader.

For a full five minutes, Moore cruelly dwells on Bush's vacuous, tortured face in close-up immediately after he had been told about the attacks on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon.

The message is clear. Here is no Roosevelt, Churchill or Thatcher, but a deeply inadequate man whose mind is frozen with indecision and fear. It is a look I know well - if he had been a subordinate commander in battle I would have immediately relieved him of his command."

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=47

I shaved off my beard for you, devil woman!

BARNSTORMER

Tuesday, July 13, 2004 3:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCAVALIER:
...it stands to reason at the very least that the members of the Secret Service guarding the President that morning knew ahead of time the extent of the attacks. They knew the terrorists posed no threat to the President down in Florida. So, somebody briefed them, somebody knew.
Quote:
Originally posted by BarnStormer:
If you really believe that, I think your in need of a serious reality check.
BarnStormer may not have chosen the best way to express it, but his sentiment is correct.

When posing the opinion that GWB planned and authorized the 9/11 attacks (or at least knew about them beforehand), you really need to ask "What does he have to gain?"

Some people might say it's fat government contracts for his buddies, or the needed excuse to take revenge on Saddam for his father. The problem is that it's not even remotely possible for a small group of people, no matter how powerful, to predict what the consequences will be of an event like 9/11. It's much more plausible that he just took advantage of 9/11 to do things things he couldn't have done otherwise (and if anyone out there thinks their favorite democrat wouldn't have done the same, you could use a 'serious reality check' to borrow a phrase).

The fact is, nobody but W himself knows what he was thinking during those 7 minutes. All else is useless speculation.

I'm no Bush lover, but it's nice to keep our accusations in the realm of possibility, so when we have legitimate concerns we aren't dismissed out of hand.
---------------------------------------------
...The beauty of things was born before eyes and sufficient to itself; the heart-breaking beauty
Will remain when there is no heart to break for it.

This reply is for HKCAVALIER

My mistake. I read your post and thought you were expressing the opinion that Bush knew/planned/orchastrated the WTC attacks, and that was why he just sat there for the 7 minutes.

Thats where the "Reality Check" comment of mine came from. I'm of the opinion now, after reading other posts that that is not what you meant.

Again, my apologies for thinking you were expressing a belief in what I would think is a wild eyed conspiracy theory. Leave that stuff to Micheal Moore.

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

MELEAUX

Tuesday, July 13, 2004 5:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Quote:
Originally posted by meleaux:
I am sorry to say that threads like these make me sad to visit this websight. I just want to read about favorite quotes and favorite scenes, maybe pick up some news about the upcoming movie.
Meleaux! We love you and need you to stick around but maybe you should stay away from this Category:

Thank you Succatash. Thats probably good advice

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

She understands, she doesn't comprehend

JASONZZZ

Tuesday, July 13, 2004 8:26 PM

Well... you can slice it a couple of ways.

How many extraordinary world leaders have had the opportunity of a camera shoved right into his face at exactly the same moment that the shit hit the fan? You are looking at the exact same reaction that any one - including tough seasoned leaders would do when they find out two huge freaking passenger carrying jets just crashed into the city of New York. You are looking at someone who does not have complete information to make a decision on - was it a definitive attack, was it guidance system malfunction, was it coffee spilled into the pilot's lap?

Take a look at it from another angle, had he sprung into action at that very moment and done exactly what he needed to do, how many of the conspiracy nutzos would then have branded him as knowing (and possibly planning) exactly what had happened?

GHOULMAN

Wednesday, July 14, 2004 10:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:
Originally posted by meleaux:
I love firefly and I love calling myself a browncoat. I am sorry to say that threads like these make me sad to visit this websight.

The sad thing is I feel the same way and I started this thread! I really wanted to know what other intelligent, well-informed people thought about those 7 minutes. Why that can't be discussed calmly and respectfully I do not know.

Yea, I know what you mean!

I'm an old conspiracy guy. Call me Fox Mulder.

There is no way one can, at this time, tell you what might have happened in the control rooms or who might be responsible for hijacked planes in the US military... oddly enough. Oh and oddly enough, I've noticed American reporters can't seem to remember what was supposed to happen in these situations... more of the odd! It's not really possible to pull much together at this time. Though I have a possible motivation. What I have learned after years of reading Fortean minutia online is this... follow the money!

After 9/11 "President" GWB went to bed and wrote in his diary something to the affect that today was his "Pearl Harbour" day. How prophetic!

But seriously, there need not be any more motivation than money. That's why it's the first thing the police ask about in any murder investigation. I've lived in spots where people would cut out your left eye for $5. Do you think Dick Cheney and his band of ex-Nixon conspirators might take advantage of an attack on American soil for.. oh say... all the Oil in Iraq?

I wonder...

But you need to nail down a real connection, a real crime, or you're just pissing into the wind.

HKCAVALIER

Thursday, July 15, 2004 12:12 AM

But Ghoulman, 3,000 civilians? For money? Aren't there easier and less flagrantly psychotic ways to get money? Isn't that kinda like saying alcoholics drink because they're thirsty? And besides, don't you think Cheney et al could have convinced us to go to war in Iraq with maybe just a couple hundred dead?

At that level, I don't think it could be the money. Was Bin Laudin in it for the money? Did Nixon send the plumbers to the Watergate Hotel for money? Did Hitler kill 1,000,000 jews for money? I can wrap my head around self-interested s.o.b.'s exploiting the suffering of millions for money, but to be the cause of that suffering would seem to require something more than greed, don'tya think?

And that's where I'm most baffled by the 9/11 conspiracy thing. I mean, it's obvious to me that the government is hiding all manner of strange details of that day from us. The plane getting shot down in Pittsburgh, the little hole in the side of the Pentagon, the fact that the "plane" just happened to hit a side of the Pentagon that was being renovated. And ignoring all the intelligence that came before. I mean, it's a nasty, swamp of intrigue and innuendo, but like you say: "you need to nail down a real connection, a real crime, or you're just pissing into the wind."

People learn from the mistakes of others. I'm sure Watergate really advanced the science of criminality in high places. But I just don't see a clear motive for the Cheney gang to organize the attacks on the WTC unless they are a gang of ravening psychopaths with an agenda beyond lining their pockets. And crazy people ALWAYS show their hands, Ghoulman. That kind can't hold it together for 30 years waiting for their moment to strike, can they?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

LOSTINTHEVERSE

Thursday, July 15, 2004 2:42 AM

I cannot fault President Bush for waiting 7 minutes or for issuing an order to shoot down rogue aircraft. It was an event that had never happened before. I doubt anyone else would have responded any faster. I know I would certainly have been caught off guard.

Next point, as much as personal human loss is a terrible tragedy, I'd rather have to shoot down a plane full of innocent people than have that plane full of people crash into a full building and take out 1000 more innocent people. During an event like what happened 9/11, difficult decisions have to be made. I'm not saying there weren't mistakes made, but I simply don't believe that anyone could have handled it better. In particular, I do not believe that Al Gore would have made fewer mistakes and acted in less than 7 minutes.

As per usual, this is just one mans opinion. Feel free to tear it apart.

~ Lost In The 'Verse

"About a year before we met, I spent 6 months on a moon where the primary form of recreation was juggling geese. My hand to god. Baby geese. Goslings. They were juggled!"

HKCAVALIER

Thursday, July 15, 2004 2:51 PM

The point about the plane in Pittsburgh, LostInTheVerse, is not that it was done, but that it has been covered up. Most people would understand if we shot down a plane that morning. So why hide it? To avoid some lawsuits? I think a lot of people would have a lot fewer problems with our government if they didn't keep lying and covering stuff up.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

LOSTINTHEVERSE

Thursday, July 15, 2004 3:11 PM

Granted, HKCavalier. I posted here in a rush, didn't realize I was off topic until now.

~ Lost In The 'Verse

"About a year before we met, I spent 6 months on a moon where the primary form of recreation was juggling geese. My hand to god. Baby geese. Goslings. They were juggled!"

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