Real World Event Discussions
Rigged voting .... been going on for a long time, and still happening
POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Friday, August 11, 2023 00:49
VIEWED: 8227
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Friday, October 26, 2018 10:05 AM
Quote:Not so far as I know.
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Any difference this year?
I wondered why the Democrats didn't get on the ball after having had two elections apparently stolen from them. The only reason why not to reform the voting system from top to bottom then was to take advantage of the inherent flaws later.
It's up to each State Secretary to determine voter rolls and how the vote is taken and counted. So the State Secretary of each state can presumably throw the vote in whatever direction they choose.
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND
America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876
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Friday, November 9, 2018 7:10 PM
Quote:No different this year.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:Not so far as I know.
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Any difference this year?
I wondered why the Democrats didn't get on the ball after having had two elections apparently stolen from them. The only reason why not to reform the voting system from top to bottom then was to take advantage of the inherent flaws later.
It's up to each State Secretary to determine voter rolls and how the vote is taken and counted. So the State Secretary of each state can presumably throw the vote in whatever direction they choose.
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND
America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876
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Friday, November 9, 2018 7:43 PM
Quote:In the 2000 election, how do Democrats correct what Republican Supreme Court Justices did in Florida? Or what Florida Governor Bush did for his Republican brother President Bush?
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:Not so far as I know.
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Any difference this year?
I wondered why the Democrats didn't get on the ball after having had two elections apparently stolen from them. The only reason why not to reform the voting system from top to bottom then was to take advantage of the inherent flaws later.
www.factcheck.org/2008/01/the-florida-recount-of-2000/
In the 2016 election, how do Democrats correct what Republican Congressmen did while investigating Benghazi and Email and Clinton? I'm still waiting for FBI Director (and Republican) Christopher A. Wray to pick up the case that FBI Director (and Republican) James Comey started, but never finished. Attorney General (and Republican) Matthew Whitaker said, before Trump appointed him in a tweet, that he would prosecute Hillary. I look forward to that happening. Obviously, no swing voters were influenced by all these Republican politicians and their chant Lock her up! Lock her up! It must be the Democrats' fault that they could not stop Republicans from making false accusations about felonies.
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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Saturday, November 10, 2018 12:41 AM
Quote:
In the 2000 election, how do Democrats correct what Republican Supreme Court Justices did in Florida? Or what Florida Governor Bush did for his Republican brother President Bush?
What do you mean, "correct for"? There's no way to undo results so far in the past, the only thing to do is to make sure it doesn't happen again.
As I've posted before, the problem with the FL vote wasn't "hanging chads", it was with electronic voting. That was where an electronic voting machine registered something like -17,000 votes for Gore.
Electronic voting (specifically touch screen) also produced votes that were widely at variance with exit polls in 2004. http://www.michaelparenti.org/stolenelections.html
But you forgot what the FL Scy State - Katherine Harris - did for Bush too. She assiduously scrubbed the voter rolls of any category of people that might possible lean Democratic.
*****
So, what to do?
Well, we would have to start with gerrymandering. Congress needs to pass a law, something like the Voting Rights Act, but one which applies to ALL states and which specifically addresses gerrymandering and voter registration fraud and voter roll tampering. Personally, I think these are technical issues which are easily solved with sound statistical sampling methods.
Also, I see nothing wrong with requiring picture ID in order to vote, as long as the requirement is put in place far enough in advance to allow the Secretaries of State and interested political parties the oppty to comb through their rolls and make sure that everyone has the required ID.
And personally, I believe the most secure vote is hand-written and hand-counted ballots. However, if people think that is too expensive, you need a system that uses paper ballots and which maintains an audit of each vote tally, so that the vote tallies can be audited against hand-counted tallies. None of this touch-screen bullshit. Also, Secretaries of State should be required to maintain the actual ballots for at least a year after the vote; there were too many instances in the FL vote of county or local officials tossing the paper rolls of tallies and ballots before the vote was even certified.
AND FINALLY, instead of relying on early voting, Congress should make voting day a national holiday, with paid vacation time for workers.
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND
America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876
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Saturday, November 10, 2018 1:10 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
Have at it SIG. I am not going to discuss this with someone who doesn't understand fact from fiction. Instead I'll post this here because you and 1kiki ignored it.
Another story that suggests the Kremlin Orchestrated the Ukraine invasion.
"Payback? Russia Gets Hacked, Revealing Putin Aide's Secrets
A Ukrainian group calling itself Cyber Hunta has released more than a gigabyte of emails and other material from the office of one of Vladimir Putin's top aides, Vladislav Surkov, that show Russia's fingerprints all over the separatist movement in Ukraine.
While the Kremlin has denied the relationship between Moscow and the separatists, the emails show in great detail how Russia controlled virtually every detail of the separatist effort in the Russian-speaking regions of Ukraine, which has torn the country apart and led to a Russian takeover of Crimea."
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/payback-russia-gets-ha
cked-revealing-putin-aide-s-secrets-n673956
____________________________________________
Russia trolls get contract extension
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60719]
T
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Saturday, November 10, 2018 4:59 AM
Quote:Too many instances in FL?
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:
In the 2000 election, how do Democrats correct what Republican Supreme Court Justices did in Florida? Or what Florida Governor Bush did for his Republican brother President Bush?
What do you mean, "correct for"? There's no way to undo results so far in the past, the only thing to do is to make sure it doesn't happen again.
As I've posted before, the problem with the FL vote wasn't "hanging chads", it was with electronic voting. That was where an electronic voting machine registered something like -17,000 votes for Gore.
Electronic voting (specifically touch screen) also produced votes that were widely at variance with exit polls in 2004. http://www.michaelparenti.org/stolenelections.html
But you forgot what the FL Scy State - Katherine Harris - did for Bush too. She assiduously scrubbed the voter rolls of any category of people that might possible lean Democratic.
*****
So, what to do?
Well, we would have to start with gerrymandering. Congress needs to pass a law, something like the Voting Rights Act, but one which applies to ALL states and which specifically addresses gerrymandering and voter registration fraud and voter roll tampering. Personally, I think these are technical issues which are easily solved with sound statistical sampling methods.
Also, I see nothing wrong with requiring picture ID in order to vote, as long as the requirement is put in place far enough in advance to allow the Secretaries of State and interested political parties the oppty to comb through their rolls and make sure that everyone has the required ID.
And personally, I believe the most secure vote is hand-written and hand-counted ballots. However, if people think that is too expensive, you need a system that uses paper ballots and which maintains an audit of each vote tally, so that the vote tallies can be audited against hand-counted tallies. None of this touch-screen bullshit. Also, Secretaries of State should be required to maintain the actual ballots for at least a year after the vote; there were too many instances in the FL vote of county or local officials tossing the paper rolls of tallies and ballots before the vote was even certified.
AND FINALLY, instead of relying on early voting, Congress should make voting day a national holiday, with paid vacation time for workers.
Obviously not, for the same Criminals perpetrating those crimes then are the same Criminals perpetrating the same crimes now.
FYI, when Ballot Scanners and electronic Voting were introduced, the voter had opportunity to review a printed copy of the Votes the machine recorded, to ensure it was the same votes the voter had cast.
For years now, I am required to feed the ballot into the machine, with no way to determine if the machine recorded the vote accurately.
The Liberals running my polling location have assured me that the machine is recording my vote accurately - without any proof for me, nor them, that that is true.
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Saturday, November 10, 2018 5:42 AM
Quote:The problem is, it's entirely possible to program a vote-tallying machine to record "X" when you voted "Y", but to spit out a "receipt" that says "Y" even if it counted "X". That's not a foolproof system.
FYI, when Ballot Scanners and electronic Voting were introduced, the voter had opportunity to review a printed copy of the Votes the machine recorded, to ensure it was the same votes the voter had cast. For years now, I am required to feed the ballot into the machine, with no way to determine if the machine recorded the vote accurately.
That's why you need a paper ballot that can be hand-counted.
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND
America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876
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Saturday, November 10, 2018 6:07 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:The problem is, it's entirely possible to program a vote-tallying machine to record "X" when you voted "Y", but to spit out a "receipt" that says "Y" even if it counted "X". That's not a foolproof system.
FYI, when Ballot Scanners and electronic Voting were introduced, the voter had opportunity to review a printed copy of the Votes the machine recorded, to ensure it was the same votes the voter had cast. For years now, I am required to feed the ballot into the machine, with no way to determine if the machine recorded the vote accurately.
That's why you need a paper ballot that can be hand-counted.
Really, this wouldn't work either. At least in no way could it be considered above reproach. Paper ballots could just be miscounted, whether on accident or on purpose, or they could just be lost. Whoopsie!!!
I don't believe that there is any true way to ensure that fraud doesn't happen at one point of the election or another. Even if we're talking extremely Orwellian solutions.
Even if we got rid of all privacy surrounding voting records and you were allowed to verify your own ballot online, how would you know that everybody elses's were valid? If you were able to verify everybody elses ballots, how would you know if they actually voted or not?
Though there are things that we could do to try to curb voter fraud, the truth is it can never be eliminated no matter how pro-tech or anti-tech it is done, short of our creation of an all-powerful, omnipotent and completely unbiased A.I. tracking every step of the way.
But in that case, wouldn't the logical thing to do be to vote for the A.I.?
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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Saturday, November 10, 2018 6:11 AM
All that being said, I think the one thing that should be done is to require a photo ID to vote. That would eliminate a lot of the potential problems, but not all of them.
At the same time, I can't stand when people bitch about voter fraud right after an election. It makes them look like crybabies. It made them look like crybabies when they were claiming it was Russia in 2016 and it makes them look like crybabies when "muh Liberals" did it in 2018.
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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Saturday, November 10, 2018 6:11 AM
Quote:Agreed on all counts.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:The problem is, it's entirely possible to program a vote-tallying machine to record "X" when you voted "Y", but to spit out a "receipt" that says "Y" even if it counted "X". That's not a foolproof system.
FYI, when Ballot Scanners and electronic Voting were introduced, the voter had opportunity to review a printed copy of the Votes the machine recorded, to ensure it was the same votes the voter had cast. For years now, I am required to feed the ballot into the machine, with no way to determine if the machine recorded the vote accurately.
That's why you need a paper ballot that can be hand-counted.
But the invisible magic method is far less transparent than making a modicum of effort at the façade of Fidelity.
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