Hillary Clinton: just because she deserves her own thread

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Saturday, September 27, 2025 01:07
VIEWED: 114591
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SIGNYM

Thursday, May 19, 2016 7:18 PM

So I don't know whether this belongs in a thread about Trump or a thread about Hillary or a thread about Bernie, but

Trump beats Clinton by 3 points in new poll

Quote:
Clinton rival Bernie Sanders, meanwhile, leads Trump 46 to 42, according to the same poll.

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/fox-news-poll-b
ernie-sanders-donald-trump-hillary-clinton

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

SECOND

Thursday, May 19, 2016 8:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by G:

Who's poll? Oh, right.
Donald Trump edges out Hillary Clinton by 3 percentage points in a hypothetical general election match-up, according to a new Fox News poll.

Are you sure you're not a Republican politician?

One of the things Trump seems to have learned in his career is that it's NOT hard to kiss and make up. You can treat people as harshly as you want, but once the fight is over all you have to do is announce publicly that these are really great guys and you have nothing but respect for them. It's life as a football game.

Will it work in a presidential campaign? Can Trump make up with women, blacks, gays, Hispanics, and the disabled? It's possible. People have short memories, and they're suckers for praise. If he's smart enough to rein in the insults and shower conservative-leaning groups with praise, there's no telling how far he can go. Probably higher than Hillary, who will always have Bernie's voters hating her. Bernie's people will hold a grudge against Hillary forever. It is how the left-wing defeats the Democrats and Republicans win.

THGRRI

Thursday, May 19, 2016 9:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
This is another SIGNYM 'so very obvious' habit - trying to denigrate the US and just be generally insulting (Troll) by comparing it to Russia. The whole "Oligarch" thing for example. Kind of funny when you think about it.

The United States is an oligarchy. A study from one of the most radical universities ... Princeton ... found that the wealthy get their way, virtually all of the time.

I am aware of the research SIG refers to. Right now our country does function LIKE an Oligarchy, and the rich do control more of what happens than they should. However to quote Bernie Sanders, 80% of poor people don’t vote. And if just 15% more did, this country would change dramatically.

In other words, much to the dismay of SIG, Americans still control their own fate. They just haven't been pushed hard enough to action.

KPO

Friday, May 20, 2016 4:39 AM

Quote:

I wonder if KPO will put this in the predictions thread?

Why do people say this, as if I'm the only one who can post in the predictions thread?

KPO

Friday, May 20, 2016 7:05 AM

I'm probably going to regret this, but...

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Assume you’re either Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir Arthur Travers Harris or Brigadier General Paul Warfield Tibbets Jr. or General Curtis LeMay. You’re put on trial in Switzerland, a neutral country, because your side lost. Where would your Swiss defense lawyers go to get proof in a Law Court of any of those points you made? Saved more lives than killed? Not vindictive? Undoubtably shortened the war?

First of all, you're misreading and exaggerating all my points (that never gets old). Second of all, the points I made are not applicable for your alternate reality where the Allies lose the Second World War.

Thirdly, what are the Allied commanders on trial for? The entire bombing campaign against the Axis, or just a few specific raids? And if only a few specific raids, does that mean that you think the bombing campaign against the Axis was generally ok?

What, for example, do you think of the 1943 bombing of Hamburg? To quote myself in the old thread:

Quote:
Operation Gomorrah killed 42,600 people, left 37,000 wounded and caused some one million German civilians to flee the city.[3] The city's labour force was reduced permanently by ten percent.[3] Approximately 3,000 aircraft were deployed, 9,000 tons of bombs were dropped and over 250,000 homes and houses were destroyed. No subsequent city raid shook Germany as did that on Hamburg; documents show that German officials were thoroughly alarmed and there is some indication from later Allied interrogations of Nazi officials that Hitler stated that further raids of similar weight would force Germany out of the war.

This raid killed almost twice as many as the 1945 raid on Dresden (yet gets talked about much less it seems). Surely this was a war crime then?

SECOND

Friday, May 20, 2016 7:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:

I'm probably going to regret this, but...

I predict you won't.

The military thinking about strategic bombing runs precisely this shallow: We’ve got millions of tons of bombs, but not enough military targets. Valuable military targets are really dangerous for our bombers to approach. We can calibrate exactly how valuable military targets are to Japan or German because the most valuable targets are the most highly defended by anti-aircraft guns and fighter planes. Instead, why not make our lives easier and longer by bombing women and children where there are fewer anti-aircraft guns and fewer enemy fighter planes shooting down our bombers? We can justify it after the fact by claiming there were some soldiers home on military leave and we killed those soldiers. If we win, nobody will be able to prove differently because we will be in control of all the records!

Hiroshima was the ultimate soft target. Where are Hiroshima's anti-aircraft guns? Where are the Jap fighter planes? Not there! Perfect target for testing one of two bombs of alternate design.

On the opposite side, from today’s Houston Chronicle

Quote:
Hiroshima perspective

Regarding “Should America apologize for Hiroshima?” (Page B14, Sunday), I believe President Obama is going to throw one of the best presidents in my lifetime, President Harry S. Truman, under the bus.

Can anyone imagine the hours he spent before he ordered the bombing of Hiroshima to save thousands of lives?

Maybe President Obama should visit the National World War II Museum in New Orleans before the visit to Hiroshima. Then maybe he would understand the shoes President Truman wore that he has not walked in.

Ken Rosenberger, Houston

The Trinity test bomb was July 16, 1945. Hiroshima was bombed Aug. 6, 1945. Truman had 3 weeks to think about stopping the A-bombing, but if he gave no orders and did absolutely nothing, General Curtis LeMay had all the authority he needed to drop or not drop whatever bombs the Navy delivered to Tinian Island in the Marianas.

After the Hiroshima bombing, Truman issued a statement announcing the use of the new weapon: "We may be grateful to Providence" that the German atomic bomb project had failed, and that the United States and its allies had "spent two billion dollars on the greatest scientific gamble in history—and won". Truman then warned Japan: "If they do not now accept our terms, they may expect a rain of ruin from the air, the like of which has never been seen on this earth. Behind this air attack will follow sea and land forces in such numbers and power as they have not yet seen and with the fighting skill of which they are already well aware."

Big talk from a little pipsqueak of a man that wasn’t trusted enough by FDR to know about the A-bomb until after FDR was dead. When Truman became president on April 12, 1945, upon the death of President Roosevelt, he had no knowledge of the actual bomb project itself and his first information about what was really being done came from Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson on April 25th.

Truman didn't want to waste that two billion dollars. Bombs away!

THGRRI

Friday, May 20, 2016 8:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:

I'm probably going to regret this, but...
I predict you won't.

The military thinking about strategic bombing runs precisely this shallow: We’ve got millions of tons of bombs, but not enough military targets. Valuable military targets are really dangerous for our bombers to approach. We can calibrate exactly how valuable military targets are to Japan or German because the most valuable targets are the most highly defended by anti-aircraft guns and fighter planes. Instead, why not make our lives easier and longer by bombing women and children where there are fewer anti-aircraft guns and fewer enemy fighter planes shooting down our bombers? We can justify it after the fact by claiming there were some soldiers home on military leave and we killed those soldiers. If we win, nobody will be able to prove differently because we will be in control of all the records!

Hiroshima was the ultimate soft target. Where are Hiroshima's anti-aircraft guns? Where are the Jap fighter planes? Not there! Perfect target for testing one of two bombs of alternate design.

On the opposite side, from today’s Houston Chronicle
Quote:
Hiroshima perspective

Regarding “Should America apologize for Hiroshima?” (Page B14, Sunday), I believe President Obama is going to throw one of the best presidents in my lifetime, President Harry S. Truman, under the bus.

Can anyone imagine the hours he spent before he ordered the bombing of Hiroshima to save thousands of lives?

Maybe President Obama should visit the National World War II Museum in New Orleans before the visit to Hiroshima. Then maybe he would understand the shoes President Truman wore that he has not walked in.

Ken Rosenberger, Houston
The Trinity test bomb was July 16, 1945. Hiroshima was bombed Aug. 6, 1945. Truman had 3 weeks to think about stopping the A-bombing, but if he gave no orders and did absolutely nothing, General Curtis LeMay had all the authority he needed to drop or not drop whatever bombs the Navy delivered to Tinian Island in the Marianas.

After the Hiroshima bombing, Truman issued a statement announcing the use of the new weapon: "We may be grateful to Providence" that the German atomic bomb project had failed, and that the United States and its allies had "spent two billion dollars on the greatest scientific gamble in history—and won". Truman then warned Japan: "If they do not now accept our terms, they may expect a rain of ruin from the air, the like of which has never been seen on this earth. Behind this air attack will follow sea and land forces in such numbers and power as they have not yet seen and with the fighting skill of which they are already well aware."

Big talk from a little pipsqueak of a man that wasn’t trusted enough by FDR to know about the A-bomb until after FDR was dead. When Truman became president on April 12, 1945, upon the death of President Roosevelt, he had no knowledge of the actual bomb project itself and his first information about what was really being done came from Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson on April 25th.

Truman didn't want to waste that two billion dollars. Bombs away!

I do not wish to go into a protracted opinion about our dropping the bomb except to say, we would have had to land our troops on the shores of a country that believed its emperor was a god. The number of American dead could have exceeded two hundred and fifty thousand. I would add that their treatment of others who had fallen victim to them was to say the least, abominable.

The second bomb was dropped because the first did not bring them to the table. After the second bomb was dropped it still took more than two weeks for them to surrender. Russia declared war against Japan at this time, and it is believed it was because they feared the Russians more than us that they surrendered.

SECOND

Friday, May 20, 2016 10:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:

I do not wish to go into a protracted opinion about our dropping the bomb except to say, we would have had to land our troops on the shores of a country that believed its emperor was a god. The number of American dead could have exceeded two hundred and fifty thousand. I would add that their treatment of others who had fallen victim to them was to say the least, abominable.

The second bomb was dropped because the first did not bring them to the table. After the second bomb was dropped it still took more than two weeks for them to surrender. Russia declared war against Japan at this time, and it is believed it was because they feared the Russians more than us that they surrendered.

That's a nice story that appeals to Americans' vanity, but it is not true. On 9 May 1945 (Moscow time), Germany surrendered, meaning that if the Soviets were to honour the Yalta agreement, they would need to enter war with Japan by 9 August 1945. The Japanese were caught completely by surprise when the Soviets declared war an hour before midnight on 8 August 1945, and invaded simultaneously on three fronts just after midnight on 9 August. The Russians waited until the last day so that Japan would run low on fuel, food and ammo. Japan did as predicted, using up its fuel, food and ammo.

The million Russians rolled up the Japanese Army like it was a carpet. Americans were too afraid to invade and, to justify being chickens keeping as far away from Japan as possible and only lobbing bombs at it, the Americans gave grossly inflated predictions about American deaths. Fortunately for America, Russians didn’t believe the American predictions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Japanese_War_%281945%29

SECOND

Friday, May 20, 2016 10:13 PM

I forgot about Hillary!

Trump reacted to the terror attack in San Bernardino with a nakedly nativist, shamelessly demagogic, yet politically shrewd call for (temporarily, allegedly) banning all Muslims from entering the U.S. Roundly denounced by Democrats and leading Republicans alike, Trump watched his poll numbers go through the roof. Turns out that GOP voters supported the ban, 2 to 1.

A candidate with the tactical acuity to successfully deploy such breathtaking, bigotry-tinged cynicism is not to be trifled with. Under normal circumstances, Clinton wins. But if the fire alarm goes off between now and Election Day, all bets are off. Clinton had better be ready. Trump has shown he will be.

KPO

Friday, May 20, 2016 11:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:

I'm probably going to regret this, but...
I predict you won't.

You predict wrong.

In my post to you I posed 3 main questions (and some sub-questions):

1. What specific actions you would put the Allied air commanders on trial for
2. Whether you think the Allied bombing campaigns were broadly morally acceptable, outside of the most egregious raids
3. What you think of the 1943 bombing of Hamburg, and did it constitute a war crime

And in your response you addressed... none of them.

As I say, like arguing with a television set.

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