The Demonization of the Opposition

POSTED BY: SoupCatcher
UPDATED: Sunday, August 1, 2004 20:50
VIEWED: 35776
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SIGNYM

Friday, July 16, 2004 1:51 AM

Ok, let's take a few points, starting at the most recent and moving backwards.

Quote:
I really hate saying this, but right or wrong ain't got nothing to do with it. It is a fact of nature, you put almost any life form in a desperate enough situation, they will fight back to the best of their ability, with anything and everything they got.... If someone told me 4 years ago that some folks would commit suicide by crashing planes into a skyscraper, killing thousands, I would have thought you were crazy, that nobody was that stupid or insane.

Two major points here. First of all, if you're as realistic as you say, didn't the WTC/ Embassy/ Cole bombings kind of clue you in to the fact that people out there really really hate us? Did you think that a 3000 mile ocean was going to stop them? I know about Sharia law, I was against "the mujahadeen" in Afghanistan when they were presented by the media as wonderful friends and fierce freedom fighters. I think most of the people in this thread are a damn sight smarter than you think. YES, people hate us. I AGREE, they will stop at nothing. NO, we wouldn't want to live their kind of life. So stop pointing and gibbering- WE KNOW ALREADY!

The other point-
"It is a fact of nature, you put almost any life form in a desperate enough situation, they will fight back to the best of their ability, with anything and everything they got."

So, I guess this means that terrorists are desperately fighting back with everything they got? No... wait... that's not supposed to apply to them... it only applies to us because we're the good guys.

The point is that you use one yardstick to measure "us" and another to measure "them".

Quote:
In this piece, I was attempting only to describe what I see as a common perseption amongst conservatives. I was trying very hard not to make a judgement call here, but only describe the perception. That is the way a lot of us (conservatives) see things. And that perception is what you have to fight against, if you want to change it...Do you want to change things? Do you want to help? Do you want them to listen to you, or do you want to get blown off for any number of reasons?

You assume that Cheney, Rumsfeld, Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith, Wurmser, Abrams, Bolton, and Rice share your views, that they give a crap about what either of us think, and that they will continue to be in power. Absent any that, why in hell would I even be worried about "helping" them?

RUE

Friday, July 16, 2004 2:01 AM

Summary of one topic

DRAKON (asserts binary nature of choices - offers limited examples)
In a lot of cases, it is a binary choice. Should taxes go up, or down? Should guns be banned or not? Should abortion be legal or illegal? Is this idea right or wrong? Or even is this idea more right (correct, consistent with reality, functional) than that one. Life or death are mutually exclusive. Happiness and misery ditto. If you are one, that automatically rules out the other.

SPLIBERTARIAN (disputes binary nature of choices, proposes existance of other choices )
Binary choices are a construct. By presenting an issue in an either/or manner, any other equally legitimate possibilities have already been discounted.

DRAKON (reasserts binary claim for life and death)
While life and death are binary choices, no matter how you want to deconstruct it, happiness is more of a spectrum.

HKCAVALIER (proposes mixed systems where several options/facets may exist simultaneously)
Happiness and misery are mutually exclusive? One doesn't have to take the bitter with the sweet? Is it taxes up or down or whose taxes go up or down? abortion: legal in all cases? legal after the second trimester? legal in cases of rape or incest? legal for minors as well as adults? legal without parental consent? an absolute, across-the-board ban on guns?

DRAKON (reasserts binary position, generalizes from personal)
You are either alive or dead. You are either happy [or not] Is overall the good worth the bad? That is my experience. I see them as simple. I do not see (a grey scale) as reflecting reality.

(dismisses and mischaracterizes the question)
Even admitting that the 'real question" is whose taxes, its still the same basic question here. Should they go up, or down

DRAKON (recites previous examples)
Taxes raised or lowered, overall it reduces back to a binary choice
(mischaracterizes the debate)
my opponent had not proven whether there were **not** binary issues but a different set of binary options

SPLIBERTARIAN (reiterates multiple choices)
binary question leaves out equally legitimate points [and] options have been artificially eliminated
the answers are often "worse" and "more worse", which leads me to look outside of the binary system

SIGNYM (characterizes either/or thinking, provides examples of alternatives)
Drakon, I think that your viewpoint is restricted by "either/ or" thinking. "But if the rules keep you from protecting and defending yourself" forcing the discussion into an "either/or" mode (you can have only protection OR freedom but not both)

DRAKON (defends binary as pragmatic and a way of divining 'fundamentals')
because I find it an effective means of living. Boiling problems down to as small as possible components, boiling issues and questions down to their fundamentals .....

And so on. Drakon, we are not internet-deaf. Shouting (more or less) the same thing over and over at us isn't going to help. We hear you. We are willing to discuss topics. But you seem to have nothing else beyond reasserting the same assertions, and offering the same tired examples. And also, mischaracterizing what other people say, 'demonizing' the opposition etc.

Part of the reason why you don't recognize grey is b/c you fudge it into the way you frame your either/or proposals. You 'weight' the choices. You select the balance point. And you select the time frame. In one case you will set the choice as 'any possible chance', in another case not. Your balance point changes between utility to further your own happiness to 'us winning', and other places in a vast territory. And you select between short-term goals, mid-term goals and long-term goals at whim.

Your 'binary process' in not binary (or digital), it's analogue. Only the conversion takes place so automatically in your head, you don't know it.

DRAKON

Friday, July 16, 2004 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You assume that Cheney, Rumsfeld, Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith, Wurmser, Abrams, Bolton, and Rice share your views, that they give a crap about what either of us think, and that they will continue to be in power. Absent any that, why in hell would I even be worried about "helping" them?

This illustrates one of the big problems with the whole demonization thing. Whether you like it or not, they got the job now. And there is a pretty good chance they will end up with that job for the next four years. Recent polls indicate its still about a 50 50 split in the country, right now. You may end up stuck with them.

And if you approach your political opposition with this kind of attitude, no they won't care what you think. Whats more, you run the very real risk of shrinking your side's support, as people look at your views, and your manner of discussing them, and write them off. Is that what you want? You don't get the votes, you are going to be stuck with them. You keep up this demonization, folks will think your not quite right in the head, and that will not only discredit you, but your views and your political side. Then you won't get the votes.

And since they have the job, it comes back to which side you want to win. Not in November but in the war. You can help them do their job, and I think the answer is obvious why you would want to. That is if you are really concerned about the war.

You've tried to blow off my concerns as paranoia and fear earlier. There is still two craters in Manhatten that demostrate the rationality of my concern. So that does not work too well.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

DRAKON

Friday, July 16, 2004 10:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Summary of one topic

DRAKON (asserts binary nature of choices - offers limited examples)
In a lot of cases, it is a binary choice. Should taxes go up, or down? Should guns be banned or not? Should abortion be legal or illegal? Is this idea right or wrong? Or even is this idea more right (correct, consistent with reality, functional) than that one. Life or death are mutually exclusive. Happiness and misery ditto. If you are one, that automatically rules out the other.

That is a pretty good summation. Its like the color of my car, which is green. Being green automatically excludes it from being red, blue, or any other color.

Quote:

Part of the reason why you don't recognize grey is b/c you fudge it into the way you frame your either/or proposals. You 'weight' the choices. You select the balance point. And you select the time frame. In one case you will set the choice as 'any possible chance', in another case not. Your balance point changes between utility to further your own happiness to 'us winning', and other places in a vast territory. And you select between short-term goals, mid-term goals and long-term goals at whim.

I don't think that is what I have done. I don't think I have mischaracterized anyone here, just called them as I see them. You missed a good chunk on the lack of utility inherent in this "shades of grey" thinking, which is the real problem. It locks up the decision loop. It prevents actions and ensures that you end up with unexpected consequences.

I know I am repeating myself, but since you did not bring this up in your summation, I thought it important to reinterate it again.

At some point, you have to have to choose, and in fact, even if you don't choose, that still has consequences just like the choices you do make. Getting stuck in this "shades of grey" thinking does not look like a good idea, does not look like an effective way of dealing with life's issues, big or small.

Besides which, it is the actions that have consequences. All the mental stuff (which is the cause of which action you take) is nice, it hopefully gets you where you want to go. But in the real world it don't mean a thing. If you flip the light switch, whether your intention or desire was to turn on the lights, does not matter. The lights come on.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

SIGNYM

Friday, July 16, 2004 1:22 PM

Drakon, I have time for ONE comment right now:

Show me a single post where I blew you off as paranoid. Quote right here, or I start deducting credibility points.

FAW! I hate people who lie!

SIGNYM

Friday, July 16, 2004 2:59 PM

I'm going to add one thing to that post. Just so you realize that this isn't an open-ended challenge, I expect to see that post by Sunday noon Zulu time. Without that post, by your own black and white extreme way of looking at things, you either lied or you're incompetent to judge reality.

I'll get to those other points later today.

RUE

Friday, July 16, 2004 3:08 PM

You missed a good chunk on the lack of utility inherent in this "shades of grey" thinking, which is the real problem.

If I tried to control a system that way it would be unstable. There's a reason for things like potentiometers (and even their 'digital' equivalents.)

Proportional is a valid concept in 'the real world'.

In any case, I HAVE discussed various topics in great detail. But you just blow by that. (When DOES a human individual come into existance, Drakon?) So I'm back to my original assessment of you. This is not an 'oops' kind of thing, you deliberately disable honest discussion.

As far as I'm concerned, you and I have nothing to discuss.

SIGNYM

Friday, July 16, 2004 4:35 PM

WELL DANG, RUE! You bring up a good point and I'm kicking myself for not having seen it! After all, my SO is an electronics engineer who designs control and measurement systems for research, and you'd think that by now I would have proportional controllers and power supplies firmly fixed in my brain!

SIGNYM

Friday, July 16, 2004 7:35 PM

Ok, so continuing...

Quote:
This illustrates one of the big problems with the whole demonization thing. Whether you like it or not, they got the job now. And there is a pretty good chance they will end up with that job for the next four years. Recent polls indicate its still about a 50 50 split in the country, right now. You may end up stuck with them.

And if you approach your political opposition with this kind of attitude, no they won't care what you think. Whats more, you run the very real risk of shrinking your side's support, as people look at your views, and your manner of discussing them, and write them off. Is that what you want? You don't get the votes, you are going to be stuck with them. You keep up this demonization, folks will think your not quite right in the head, and that will not only discredit you, but your views and your political side. Then you won't get the votes.

I'm going to take this conversation sideways. ASSUMING that all of YOUR assumptions are true- that Cheney et al want to make the world safe for Americans, that they give a fig about what you or I think, that "establishing democracy" in Iraq is an essential part of the plan ... How would you judge their effort so far? What should they have done differently, if anything? What would you tell them to do in the future? What would be your milestone or milestones? Would the first UN-observed election be OK, or would you be looking for evidence of a stable, self-sustaining democracy? The growth of a middle class?

--------------------

Not sharing your assumptions, your faith and trust in Cheney et al is the same as "demonization"??? Only a person who's wobbly in their faith would pull that kind of rhetorical horsesh*t. You can do better than that! Provide me with some evidence that Cheney et al are really on the side of the angels. PLEASE don't do it by pointing to Osama/Zarqawi and saying "It's either Cheney or DOOM!!!"

DRAKON

Saturday, July 17, 2004 12:45 AM

Since you and Rue, have already written off my ideas and opinions, what is the point of continuing?

So far, Iraqis are free of Saddam. That is a big plus. The costs of this war, I have to admit are far less than I expected, and despite operational constraints, and the constant ankle biting from some quarters, pretty good. Not excellent, nor perfect. Far better and quicker than reconstruction in Japan and Germany after WW2.

Al Sadr's uprising is gone, Iraqis are now producing more electricity than they did prior to the war, and are on their way to establishing a democracy. Yes there are still terrorist attacks, kidnappings and problems. But compared to the sucesses, pretty good.

Now, as for your point about "rhetorical horsesh*t". I am calling them as you present them to me. You might argue that you are doing the same. You don't think they care one whit about any of us, me, you, the Iraqis, or anything. You should explain how you come to this conclusion. Mind reading? You will have to explain how this is not demonization to me. Hopefully you can do it in a more civilized, less bullying tone.

Since you are employing the methods you are using in this debate, it is hard for me to take you seriously.. And your lack of civility, make me think that you are the one who is in an insecure position, as far as judging reality. If you had actual arguments, or logic, you could produce it. And leave the invective aside. But instead you demand, and threaten to write me off if you don't get what you want. When your very posts prove you have already done so.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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