Hungary's refugee-kicking camerawoman pondering move to Russia...

POSTED BY: kpo
UPDATED: Monday, August 4, 2025 00:24
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KPO

Sunday, November 1, 2015 12:05 AM

Quote:

kpo: I pointed out instances where the neo-Nazi propaganda film was NOT factual
1kiki: No, you didn't.

More lies. Anyone can go and read the thread and see for themselves, but I'll make it easy and repost what I said here. Here are a couple of the lies in the video which I pointed out in the old thread, and you couldn't answer then:

First there was this quote in the video, attributed to Churchill:

"German cities... will be subject to an ordeal the like of which has never been experienced by a country in continuity, severity, and magnitude ... to achieve this end there are no lengths of violence to which we will not go".

This fake 'quote' is made up of two separate Churchill quotes that have been edited and spliced together. Firstly:

"German cities, harbours and centres of war production will be subjected to an ordeal the like of which has never been experienced by any country in continuity, severity or magnitude." -- Churchill, June 2, 1942
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1942/420602b.html

And secondly, in a speech about 'Prussian militarism' and 'Nazi tyranny':

"...the twin roots of all our evils - Nazi tyranny and Prussian militarism - must be extirpated. Until this is achieved there are no sacrifices we will not make, no lengths in violence to which we will not go." -- Churchill, September 21, 1943
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19430926&id=u6
kWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=BSMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4051,4615431&hl=en

So. Two separate speeches, given over a year apart, with two different contexts. Both quotes were edited and then spliced together and presented as just a single, fake quote.

On to lie number 2. The video pushes the infamous myth about Allied pilots 'strafing' of civilians (and zoo animals). Signy was screaming in outrage about this fictional atrocity, until I pointed out that it was an infamous lie. Then even Signy admitted that the strafing claims were bogus, but claimed she didn't get that information from the video (she was hoping that I hadn't watched it) - and so I pointed to the section of the video talking about strafing that she had repeated nearly word for word.

Anyway, this is the section of Wiki that talks about the strafing myth:

Quote:
Historian Götz Bergander, who was himself an eyewitness of the raids, found no reports on strafing for 13–15 February, neither by any of the pilots nor by the German military and police. He asserted in Dresden im Luftkrieg (1977) that only a few tales of civilians being strafed were reliable in details, and all were related to the daylight attack on 14 February. He concluded that some memory of eyewitnesses was real, but that it had misinterpreted the firing in an airfight as being deliberately aimed at people on the ground.[67] In 2000, historian Helmut Schnatz found that there was an explicit order to RAF pilots not to strafe civilians on the way back home from Dresden. He also reconstructed timelines with the result that strafing would have been almost impossible due to lack of time and fuel.[68] Frederick Taylor in Dresden (2004), basing most of his analysis on the work of Bergander and Schnatz, concludes that no strafing took place, although some stray bullets from an aerial dog fight may have hit the ground and been mistaken for strafing by those in the vicinity.

So, here we have 2 undeniable falsehoods in the video that I was able to pick out and expose after skimming through the video. There are likely many more. Are you ready to reject this lying, neo-Nazi video as a trustworthy source yet kiki?

It's not personal. It's just war.

KPO

Sunday, November 1, 2015 12:23 AM

And in case anyone is in any doubt about the nature of the website we are talking about, which Signy posted the video from, this is it - http://www.hellstormdocumentary.com/

"Kyle Hunt is an American broadcaster and founder of Renegade Broadcasting, a documentary filmmaker, and a White advocacy activist. His newly-released documentary, Hellstorm (based on historian Thomas Goodrich’s book, Hellstorm: The Death of Nazi Germany, 1944-1947) presents in graphic detail the many heretofore rarely mentioned horrors inflicted upon the German people during and after the Second World War."

This other Hellstorm video gives a good representation of what the website is all about:

(if the video doesn't play use the link to the main Hellstorm website above)

Watch the bit leading up to @1:50 - the point when Hitler comes to power...

It's not personal. It's just war.

KPO

Sunday, November 1, 2015 12:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

MEANWHILE remember what you claimed about my posts? You claimed I said THIS: who argues vehemently that neo-Nazi videos are a reliable historical source

Yanno, I'm STILL waiting for you to find me that quote.

I already did

Quote:
When Signy posted a propaganda video on the WWII Dresden bombing from the neo-Nazi website 'Hellstorm' and I called her out on it, you defended the video thus:

1kiki: "You insist on calling facts - archival filmography, direct quotes, historically documented lists of cities bombed - propaganda."

And thus you continue arguing down the thread, referring to the neo-Nazi video as 'factual'.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=59952&p=2

It's not personal. It's just war.

1KIKI

Sunday, November 1, 2015 1:27 AM

"who argues vehemently that neo-Nazi videos are a reliable historical source"

"You insist on calling facts - archival filmography, direct quotes, historically documented lists of cities bombed - propaganda."

Because telling you to focus on content - archival filmography, direct quotes, historically documented lists - rather than source is vehement argument in favor of neo-Nazi sources.

I think most people will understand that you're mis characterizing my statement.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

KPO

Sunday, November 1, 2015 2:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"You insist on calling facts - archival filmography, direct quotes, historically documented lists of cities bombed - propaganda."

Were you or were you not talking about the neo-Nazi video when you said these words?

Now everyone watch while kiki avoids answering the question...

It's not personal. It's just war.

1KIKI

Sunday, November 1, 2015 3:33 AM

German cities ... will be subjected to an ordeal the like of which has never been experienced by a country in continuity severity and magnitude ... to achieve this end there are no lengths of violence to which we will not go

That was so nice of them to indicate where they spliced phrases together, don't you think? Otherwise one might never know. And so nice of you to do the same thing with your partial quote. OOPS. If you have a problem with that, maybe you need to fix it.

"In fact, I may say as the year advances German cities, harbours and centres of war production will be subjected to an ordeal the like of which has never been experienced by any country in continuity, severity or magnitude."

"...the twin roots of all our evils - Nazi tyranny and Prussian militarism - must be extirpated. Until this is achieved there are no sacrifices we will not make, no lengths in violence to which we will not go."

When Churchill said "German cities, harbours and centres of war production", was he somehow excluding cities? Was he saying that ONLY harbours and centers of war production would be bombed? Or were cities in and of themselves included as targets? Because if 'cities' had been falsely added in as targets and Churchill never said that, I think you'd have a point that the quote was edited to convey a falsehood. But he did say cities were targets. They were in a list of targets, but they were targets. In fact, they were the first target mentioned. So Churchill said that 'cities will be subjected to an ordeal the like of which has never been experienced by a country in continuity severity and magnitude'.

Are we supposed to ignore that? Or are you saying it's ok to target cities, and btw, their civilians?

Now, let me provide more context for the second quote. This is how the news article begins:
Twice on our lifetime and also three times in that of our fathers, they (the German people) have plunged the world into their wars of expansions and aggression. They combine in the most deadly manner the qualities of the warrior and the slave. They do not value freedom themselves, and the spectacle of it in others is hateful to them.

After then saying the fight wasn't against a race but against 'Nazi tyranny and Prussian militarism' he went on to say 'the twin roots of all our evils - Nazi tyranny and Prussian militarism - must be extirpated. Until this is achieved there are no sacrifices we will not make, no lengths in violence to which we will not go.'

It's an important statement on the role of violence Britain had adopted in war. Considering how few statements he made about the topic, it topically belongs together with the first.

This book says this about the subject: (Among the Dead Cities: Is the Targeting of Civilians in War Ever Justified? By A.C. Grayling)
It would I think be too much to claim that RAF Bomber command in semi-autonomous way consciously attempted a kind of Morgenthau plan of its own. But by default, that is exactly what the tendency of massive urban destruction was.

It then goes on to describe the change of air strategy from 'precision' bombing to 'area' bombing (also known as carpet bombing).

It also discusses the change in Churchill's stance about bombing civilians - from his early condemnation of Germans targeting Polish cities as a 'new and odious form of attack' to that stance that 'German cities, harbours ... etc'. He also said this regarding Japan 'it is the duty of those who are charged with the direction of the War to ... begin the process so necessary and desirable of laying the cities and the other military centers of Japan in ashes, for in ashes they must surely lie before peace comes to the world'. And here's another reading of the same theme 'The havoc ... is matched by that wrought on the whole of that guilty organization (Germany) .... there are no ... lengths in violence to which we will not go, to destroy Nazi tyranny and P

1KIKI

Sunday, November 1, 2015 3:50 AM

"who argues vehemently that neo-Nazi videos are a reliable historical source"

"You insist on calling facts - archival filmography, direct quotes, historically documented lists of cities bombed - propaganda."

Because telling you to focus on content - archival filmography, direct quotes, historically documented lists - rather than source is vehement argument in favor of neo-Nazi sources.

I think most people will understand that you're mis characterizing my statement. And I'm repeating this because you're, once again, unable to distinguish between content - which I was addressing - and source, which you seem to think is a replacement for facts and logic.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

KPO

Sunday, November 1, 2015 9:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"You insist on calling facts - archival filmography, direct quotes, historically documented lists of cities bombed - propaganda."

Were you or were you not talking about the neo-Nazi video when you said these words?

Now everyone watch while kiki avoids answering the question...

It's not personal. It's just war.

Happy Halloween everyone.

It's not personal. It's just war.

SIGNYM

Sunday, November 1, 2015 11:12 PM

Quote:
And in case anyone is in any doubt about the nature of the website we are talking about, which Signy posted the video from, this is it -

Were we talking about the "nature of the website"???
Well, YOU were. I was talking about the content of the video.

The video that I was talking about was, what? 30 minutes long? You focused on two relatively minor points:

The first was a "misquote" from Churchill. Now, frankly, I think Churchill said EXACTLY that they would target German cities.
The second was whether or not people were strafed. I've spoken with several people who knew Dresden survivors, those survivors had a distinct memory of being strafed, or at least being shot at. Someone specifically said it was P-52s (American) planes that did the strafing. For me, this is still an open question, because now I've seen conflicting evidence which I have not looked into.

But aside from those two points, the video addressed a whole number of points, that:

Dresden was a primarily civilian refugee city.
Its civilian centers were bombed in multiple waves (avoiding the industrial and rail centres).
The subsequent waves targeted open areas where people ran for shelter.
A firestorm was set off which melted, charred, or incinerated the many people who were not initially killed by bomb blast of shrapnel.
Somewhere around 27,000 civilians were killed.
This constitutes a war crime, because targeting and bombing civilian centers was deliberate (it certainly wasn't an accident).

So, all of these points are lies?

I'm not going to answer whatever you choose to post, because while I can (AND HAVE) pointed to "reportage" from Bellingcrap and NYT which should have thoroughly discredited these websites in your mind, no amount of error or lies will ever do that, and no amount of truth elsewhere will ever meet your throughly biased standards.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, November 2, 2015 5:34 AM

Anthony Beevor's book on The fall of Berlin is a very interesting read. I can recommend it.

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