Meanwhile, as Greece struggles to unshackle itself from IMF aid, Ukraine puts on the yoke
POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Sunday, August 9, 2026 14:18
VIEWED: 4711
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I love the fact that you end by asking for sites. Everyone who has followed any of the threads about the Ukraine knows there are threads addressing all of this that you and Sig chose to ignore. That said I will waste no more time with you this evening.
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
So, very generally Signy, I've come to a change of ideas. I used to think that national cohesion was a worthy goal. But as I started to think about it more, I started to wonder - why? If people aren't in the same country of their own free will, then they're in it by applied force. And just on general terms, it's hard to argue you're for freedom and democracy if you're not willing to abide by either.
Then we agree, the fucking ungrateful Russians should go home.
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It's Kiev fighting its own citizens in order to maintain national unity - a unity of intentions and goals which does not exist. You're right - Kiev should go home and leave the Eastern Ukrainians to decide their own fate.
SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.
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THUGR, do you know much about the IMF and how it operates? Because I've been watching it for quite a while now, and I have to say that when the IMF gets a hold of some nation's finances, it NEVER turns out well for the citizens.
Quote:Oh, THAT must be why the Rada passed their budget at 4 AM without having even read it! Because "the people" are all for austerity, and Ukraine is all about the will of the people!
Signy, I don't think there was a single commentator who predicted that Ukraine would NOT face austerity, or that the Ukrainian population would like it.
Thanks for the history rewrite!
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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.
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Quote:
…SIG
THUGR, do you know much about the IMF and how it operates? Because I've been watching it for quite a while now, and I have to say that when the IMF gets a hold of some nation's finances, it NEVER turns out well for the citizens.
All this shows me is that you chose to blow right by two countries tired of corruption and unfruitful ties to Russia who are trying to change,and instead just attack the IMF. Nothing new here. How about Russia pulls it tanks and unruly migrants out of the Ukraine and Georgia and leaves them be.
You ignore the most back facts regarding all of this. Georgia and Ukraine are sovereign nations and can do what they chose. Even if what they chose is a mistake. All your subjective writing will not erase this simple fact.
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Quote:
THUGR, do you know much about the IMF and how it operates? Because I've been watching it for quite a while now, and I have to say that when the IMF gets a hold of some nation's finances, it NEVER turns out well for the citizens. -SIGNY
All this shows me is that you chose to blow right by two countries tired of corruption and unfruitful ties to Russia who are trying to change,and instead just attack the IMF. Nothing new here. How about Russia pulls it tanks and unruly migrants out of the Ukraine and Georgia and leaves them be.
You ignore the most back facts regarding all of this. Georgia and Ukraine are sovereign nations and can do what they chose. Even if what they chose is a mistake. All your subjective writing will not erase this simple fact. -THUGR
Sometimes I read your posts and I wonder.... what are you taking about???
Russian tanks in Ukraine .... Yanno, KPO and G have been scouring the internet looking for Russian tanks in Ukraine, and they found two. Or maybe three. It's a little hard to keep track because the same tweets show up over and over again. So yeah ... Russia should pull its tanks out of Ukraine [/snicker]. I'm sure that will really make a difference. [/sarcasm]
"Unruly immigrants"??? You mean, people who have been born and raised in an area for several generations are now personae non gratae? No longer citizens of the nation where they and their parents and grandparents were born and raised, but displaced persons? Say, do you believe in ethnic cleansing much?
So, Kiev can do anything it wants those personae non gratae within its borders? Shell them? Starve them? Of course, if it were Russia doing these things, you would be outraged. Outraged, I tell you!
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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.
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What this post is about (for those who can't read: looking at YOU, THUGR!) is not about corruption, it's not about Russia, it's about Ukraine's financial ties to the IMF and what good (if any) will come of it.
Yanno, I really think that most of the protesters in the Maidan were looking for a better life. They wanted to be part of Europe, to stroll the boulevards and sip coffee in coffee shops and buy upscale products and live a civilized life. Yeah, they would have liked to get rid of corruption, but somehow I think that electing YET ANOTHER corrupt oligarch (Poroshenko) was not the most effective way to get to that point. It seems that is life in many of the post-Soviet nations: exchanging one oligarch for another. WHich is kind of funny, because I think that describes our elections pretty well, too.
Certainly, yoking yourself to the IMF for even more loans is not the way to a better life. Heck, just remembering all of the other hapless nations that got their blood sucked by the IMF makes me very pessimistic for Ukraine. I think the Ukrainian people were terribly naive. They appeared to be entirely unaware of the economic distress experienced by many eastern and southern European nations: Latvia, Romania, Lithuania, Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria, Estonia, Macedonia, Poland... all creating immigration headaches for the UK and the Nordic nations, endless female fodder for the slave/sex trade, and thriving child-labor markets in the "under-performing" nations.
That's because only the most efficient manufacturers/ producers can survive in the EU market. There's not a lot of oppty for export, and what there was tended to center on Russian markets for food and small consumer goods, and Chinese markets for German high-tech heavy industry. What they failed to realize is the the EU model is very much like the post-Soviet model: a microscopic number of winners and many, many losers.
What Ukrainians SHOULD have done was what Russia suggested: enter into three-part negotiations which would allow Ukraine to be active in BOTH the EU and the Customs Union with a gradual transition to the EU, and take the Russian $15 billion bond purchase offer. But those Ukrainians with the guns in Maidan had a different agenda, and since they overthrew the Yanukovich government they set this train-wreck in motion. And they're still pushing the train into the wreckage.
The fight against corruption is another matter altogether. That has to be weeded out, and corrupt businessmen and politicians need to be replaced with honest ones. Removing an old structure without a replacement in the wings virtually guarantees that only the most corrupt will rise to power again.
Whatever their agenda is (and I believe there are several at play) the economic well-being of Ukrainians doesn't seem to be in any of them.
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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.
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Quote:
….Sig
Sometimes I read your posts and I wonder.... what are you taking about???
Russian tanks in Ukraine .... Yanno, KPO and G have been scouring the internet looking for Russian tanks in Ukraine, and they found two. Or maybe three.
So they found some then, and if there are tanks than all the support structures must be in place as well. That includes troops, Russian troops. You know, the same troops that shot down the civilian airliner.
Quote:
…Sig
"Unruly immigrants"??? You mean, people who have been born and raised in an area for several generations are now personae non gratae?
Great to see you realize these provinces in Ukraine are not a part of Russia. So why do you continue to excuse Russia’s meddling as though it is lawful? AND why do these same migrants, generations removed from Russia as you claim, believe they and Russia have the right to usurp the territories in the parts of the Ukraine they occupy?
Quote:
….Sig
So, Kiev can do anything it wants to people within its borders? Shell them? Starve them? Of course, if it were Russia doing these things, you would be outraged. Outraged, I tell you!
Funny how you think it is not right for the Ukrainian government to fight insurgents within its borders, yet it is totally acceptable for Russia to cross into Ukraine and start killing people as they dismantle the country. Your false cries of concern for the Ukrainian people would be laughable if it wasn't so grotesque in the way you wield it as cover for Russia's atrocities.
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Quote:WHAT "support structures"? Tanks need diesel fuel and ammo. They have a crew of three: commander, gunner, and driver. Once those are in place, they're pretty independent, and isn't that kind of the point of tanks- not needing a lot of support structure? Sheesh, pretty soon you'll be talking about those (invisible) WMDs!
So they found some then, and if there are tanks than all the support structures must be in place as well
Quote:uh huh. And that's my polite response, because at this end, I'm laughing my ass off.
You know, the same troops that shot down the civilian airliner.
Quote:I didn't say it was lawful, I said it was NEGLIGIBLE. It would be nice if you would learn to read with comprehension. That must be why you joined the military: limited opportunity in the civilian sector.
Great to see you realize these provinces in Ukraine are not a part of Russia. So why do you continue to excuse Russia’s meddling as though it is lawful?
Quote:Well, if you REALLY want to go back into history, Crimea was part of Russia until 1954, when it was given to Ukraine. So how far back to you want to go? 100 years? To 1783? Because that's when Crimea was absorbed by Russia. So if any modern nation has a historic right to Crimea, it's Russia.
why do these same migrants, generations removed from Russia as you claim, believe they and Russia have the right to usurp the territories in the parts of the Ukraine they occupy?
Quote:You have this fixed idea that somehow the Russian military - under Russian command- are in Ukraine killing thousands of people.
Funny how you think it is not all right for the Ukrainian government to fight insurgents within its borders, yet it is totally acceptable for Russia to cross into Ukraine and start killing people as they dismantle the country.
My way of figuring out who is doing what is simply to think about who has killed the most people. In this case, that would be Kiev. So it seems to me that the Kiev government itself has no concern for the well-being of its citizens.
How can you negotiate a peace with your own citizens (if you view them as such) after you've shelled and starved them? And more to the point, how can they negotiate with you?
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In any case, unless some nation comes and rescues Ukraine's ass, the government will be facing yet another ouster in a few years, maybe even a violent one. And I'm looking around, and I don't see many nations willing to step forward with a few trainloads of cash. Germany??? No, they paid for East Germany and they're still struggling to get their $$$ back from Greece. France? Austria? The USA? Ukraine is the economic hot potato that nobody wants to be stuck with. But not to worry: The IMF will save the day! It's no accident that Yatsenyuk the banker and hand-picked USA favorite is still in power in an unelected position as PM. He'll watch out for the IMF's interests!
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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.
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