Why is the world in such dire economic straits, and what can we do about it?
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Sunday, August 23, 2026 20:19
VIEWED: 10090
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Quote:*Everything* is relative. I cannot conceive of automation of *everything* in the foreseeable future.
Originally posted by SignyM:
And BTW, I am all for labor-saving devices! But there is one caveat to automation: If you tie the distribution of money to work, and then you automate everything there will be a lot of people with no way to earn money!
Yes, as automation displaced people throughout history, quite a number of folks have been disenfranchised. But if you look at the overall history, new industries emerged with new and different kinds of jobs. Technological progress is inevitable, but people are resilient and grow with the change. Yes, some people do get hurt, but the growing pains are not permanent.
I don't see it as a problem, at least, not enough that I would impose the Amish time-freeze on society or prevent investment for profit.
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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)
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The world can't be in dire economic straits, that's nonsensical, like saying all the children are above average.
That said, you have a point. The problem is neocons, neolibs, globalism in general. What the world economy needs is trade barriers. You're spot on about Greece, etc.
Socialism is still a disaster, and the source of much of the economic pain. Europe has been an economic disaster for decades because of it, which is why Europe is not a place you think of a world economic power in spite of their dominance in so much of world industry, technology and information. The US is ceasing to be a world power, but our overspending and bank bailouts, handouts, and unlimited capital creation at the discount window has corrupted the currency system here, and in every currency tied to the dollar, or with an open exchange policy with the dollar.
I guess better than trade barriers would be to scrap the currency and start a new one. It might sound extreme, but it has been done many times before, even here.
BTW, you can't rule of Fannie and Freddie from the European disaster because dollars were freely exchangable for Euros, and in fact, the fiscal malfeasance tied to them was probably about 1/2 of the overall excess currency creation, but that also means that there was another half not connected to them.
The Saudi boom was natural, they produced a product, we bought it. This is not. This is nonsense. People are inventing numbers and juggling them on computers, there's no economy behind it.
Mansions and Yachts are good. That's people earning money and spending it on small business which employs people. That's a functional economy. That's not our problem. Our problem is nonsense. It's printing off 16 trillion for yourself at the discount window with fractional reserve lending. That's the problem.
I see Frem beat me to it on this one, so I'll shut up now.
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.
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Quote:Money is the root of all evil. I believe it more and more.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I still favor the idea of edible currency with an expiration date.
-F
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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)
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Quote:Well said.
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Mansions and Yachts are good. That's people earning money and spending it on small business which employs people. That's a functional economy. That's not our problem. Our problem is nonsense. It's printing off 16 trillion for yourself at the discount window with fractional reserve lending. That's the problem.
We rose to superpowerdom with the largest manufacturing economy in the world. We are crashing because we sold that manufacturing economy to China and moved to a gambling economy.
It's so stupid we DESERVE our impending doom.
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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)
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Quote:HUH??? What do you base this on? Growth rate? National balance sheets? Standard of living? It sure would be nice if your brought some evidence to the table to back this up, because many of the most socialist countries are exporting powerhouses. And nearly all of the nations' government budgets (with the exception of Greece and Italy) were running in the black UNTIL the crisis... it was only AFTER the crisis hit that they had to empty their treasuries to shore up their (private) banks.
Europe has been an economic disaster for decades because of it, which is why Europe is not a place you think of a world economic power in spite of their dominance in so much of world industry, technology and information.
Where the EU DOES have a problem is their banking, and that is where the problem started for most of the affected EU nations. If you think OUR banking regulations are soft, we only got rid of Glass Steagall (in 1999... another nail in Clinton's coffin IMHO) to "keep up" with the EU.
THEY don't have a division between "savings" and "investment" banks. THEY operate under Basel II while OUR banks operate under FDIC. THEIR capitalization requirements were even lower than ours. Since the crisis began in every nation (except Greece) with a commercial/ investment bank crisis, it turns out that crazy capitalist-style banking was their Achilles heel. I know you have a hard-on against anything that smacks of "socialism", but at this point the only thing you're bringing to the discussion is prejudice (Prejudice... to pre-judge, not on the basis of fact).
Quote:Uh huh. Another baseless statement? Where do you get this "half" figure from?
BTW, you can't rule of Fannie and Freddie from the European disaster because dollars were freely exchangable for Euros, and in fact, the fiscal malfeasance tied to them was probably about 1/2 of the overall excess currency creation,
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CTS... you have not thought the automation problem through entirely. Automation by itself is not a problem. It is the fact that automation concentrates the flow of money into the hands of those who own the equipment.
ANY concentration of money is to be regarded as a possible problem, but under capitalism that is what money does... relentlessly and ceaselessly.
It's counter-intuitive to think of money just naturally concentrating. It's almost like thinking of water flowing uphill, or gas collecting in a corner of the room.
But there is ONE natural analogy to money concentration which may make the idea more intuitive, and that is gravity. Even if you start out with a uniform distribution of matter in space, by chance some particles will bump into each other and stick. Once that happens, they form a slightly larger gravity field, which collects more mass. And of course, the more mass an object has, the more it mass it gathers to itself. Eventually, an object will form which will collect up all loose matter.
The same thing happens with money. Now, money is no good unless it is FLOWING. Once it is all collected up in a single space, it stops being any good at all.
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Quote:Until someone else invents new automation equipment. Then it starts flowing to him/her.
Originally posted by SignyM:
It is the fact that automation concentrates the flow of money into the hands of those who own the equipment.
I know where you're going with the gravity analogy. I suspect you will suggest government policy as the only solution to the gravity problem. It is the only working model of anti-gravity, as it were.
My solution has always been new technology. If government doesn't get in the way of ANYONE coming up with new technology, then anyone can be the new center of gravity, if you will. Evolution is the anti-gravity. The old fade away, and the new take over.
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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)
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Quote:The best function of government, as I see it, is to actively push power back downwards, to the people.
I suspect you will suggest government policy as the only solution to the gravity problem. It is the only working model of anti-gravity, as it were.
Quote:And yet here we are... many technological revolutions later... and 10% of the world wants the latest iPhone, while 50% just want more food. Not seeing how technological revolutions have really solved this problem.
My solution has always been new technology. If government doesn't get in the way of ANYONE coming up with new technology, then anyone can be the new center of gravity, if you will. Evolution is the anti-gravity. The old fade away, and the new take over.
Maybe new currencies are the solution. When someone has collected too many marbles, start using paper clips?
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My husband says the marble analogy is a bit flawed.
We are assuming that marbles means money, which means material resources.
He says, in reality, marbles means money, which means time. Hours and months and years in people's lives.
He says the 11th marble DOES exist. It is the future time of the debtor. When you pay interest, you are paying the time you already have PLUS the time you don't have yet. You are, in effect, selling portions of your future life into slavery.
The 11th marble, he says, is slavery.
I found that very interesting.
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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:And yet here we are... many technological revolutions later... and 10% of the world wants the latest iPhone, while 50% just want more food. Not seeing how technological revolutions have really solved this problem.
CTS: My solution has always been new technology. If government doesn't get in the way of ANYONE coming up with new technology, then anyone can be the new center of gravity, if you will. Evolution is the anti-gravity. The old fade away, and the new take over.
Keyword: IF.
Keyword: ANYONE.
*IF* the government doesn't get in the way of *ANYONE* coming up with new technology....
Which is why you see govt as the solution, and I see govt as the part of the problem.
Right now, all the owners of old technology own new technology. The current centers of gravity want it that way, and they use govt to keep it that way.
If you look at 19th century America, there were a lot of NEW millionaires, money changing hands from the old money in Europe to the new money of inventors. That is as close as we've gotten to my evolution model.
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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)
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