Mal4Prez nails the climate change debate...
POSTED BY: kpo
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 04:17
VIEWED: 12057
PAGE 7 of 11
Well, I just reread the thread from top to bottom (skipping over DT's incredibly long posts). I don't see anyone saying anything to him like him calling Mal4 a "dick" (repeatedly), so I don't see how others are the ones you are blaming. It's all a moot point, as now I see DT's cracks at Mal4 prior to his crack about Kane, so perhaps that wasn't aimed directly at me.
However, we've been here before insofar as DT saying he hasn't got time to go into this or that, then overwhelming the board with incredibly long posts trying to make the very points he said he didn't have time for. Throwing "imminent death" in is truly rude; none of us use our private lives (that I'm aware of) to say we can't discuss something, we just don't discuss it, and it comes across to me at least like "I'm dealing with something terribly important, you're arguing something stupid; I'm not going to deal with you", as if we're being insensitive to his (sister, I belive?)'s cancer. It's very DT, so I'm guessing (perhaps subconsciously) that's what he intended.
Lastly, given Mal4 has a Ph.D. in geophysics and DT seems to have opinions about almost everything and writes as if he is the only one with the definitive answers yet I don't know what his actual education is in, I think I'll go with Mal4.
For some reason this issue of climate change has appeared to be a bugaboo with DT; every time he marches in and states "definitively" that man-made (I would say "man-enhanced) climate change has been debunked. That's his OPINION, and he's welcome to it, but to all but insist that we accept his word and that it's been debunked (which it has not, at all) is high-handed, and calling people dicks for disagreeing with him makes him the rude one, in my opinion. Enough alreadym for me at least.
P.S. While re-reading I came across where I'd said we'd not live long enough, then corrected it to I wouldn't. I wasn't saying we wouldn't live long enough to see effects, obviously we already do, I meant to say I wouldn't live long enough to see the matter SETTLED once and for all. In my opinion, by the time enough people accept that we need to change things before we completely destroy our world, it will be too late to reverse those effects. Just wanted to clarify that.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off 
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I see I'm not useful. All right then.
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"DT and I've been around and around on this one ..."
... as I have been over bacterial evolution (specifically antibiotic resistance), among other topics. He claims for example that carbapenem-resistant bacteria are a result of recent genetic manipulation at Bagram Air Force Base, DESPITE the fact that that >particular< antibiotic resistance factor gene was discovered years before in India, that that particular patient at Bagram was from India where that resistance factor was found, and despite that fact that bacteria developing antibiotic resistance in general has been a scientific observation literally since penicillin was discovered, and has been well documented and well studied for many antibiotics over 40 years. It seems that in some areas DT claims expertise, but lacks true knowledge.
I think DT is, in technical terms, a 'crank'. One of those people who show up in town hall meetings to complain about the color red; or who, as I have from time to time had the misfortune to deal with, call up local scientists to complain about - oh - vapor trails for example - as a method of mind control.
That whole trope about the 'crazy genius' who nobody would listen to who was 'right' after all - most of the time you can leave 'genius' and 'right' out of the equation. In many instances, I think DT kinda' fits that description.
Not that I think DT is a bad person. I suspect he has had some severe problem that has skewed his perspective. He is someone I wish well. It's just that I find his postings to be less than informative. He makes too many claims, cites too little information, and addresses no objections with actual data.
Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?
Yeah, me neither....
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Yeah, I've about had it here for today, too, Byte. I bet we've both got more pleasant things to do with our day; let's go do 'em!
Kiki, while I agree with a lot of what you've said, I don't see DT as a crank. For me, we each think differently, and some of those differences clash. I'm big on "it's my opinion" and such caveats and don't like being told something is accepted fact (which pushes my "I don't like anyone else saying what I think" trigger); obviously DT isn't. He apparently feels he is better educated on most subjects than the rest of us; I don't. Yes, I feel a lot of the conclusions he comes to are pretty weird, but I don't think he's a crank so much as has an unfortunate way of putting things and seems to have some difficulty accepting that others might know as much as he, but on the opposite side of the discussion.
Hey, we all have our quirks; gawd knows I've got plenty of 'em!
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off
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I think that post is fair, considering that you're on the opposite side of the debate as DT, and that both sides of any debate might think that the opposing conclusions are strange and don't make sense.
I like that you made that statement. And yes, let's both go do something empowering, like hang out with our animals or get some fresh air.
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Niki, Byte
"... I'm big on "it's my opinion ..."
"... both sides of any debate might think that the opposing conclusions are strange and don't make sense."
Except reality doesn't care about opinions and conclusions. It moves forward of its own accord. Our thoughts - chaff before a storm. Those who truly understand reality best, are the best prepared for the real world that is already upon us.
Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?
Yeah, me neither....
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I enjoy how DT asks me if I've ever "met geology", and when it turns out that I might have he calls *me* elitist. That's just silly, especially given how far out his supposed close relationship with said topic is.
Cause here's the thing Byte: science is not opinion. DT can talk convection all he wants, doesn't make his intuitive beliefs at all sensible.
Let's review. (ETA: pardon my edits for clarification. I shouldn't post science without having a reread first So I'm fixing some wording a bit.)
Thermal energy (heat) is a measure of the average kinetic energy of the particles in a medium. Kinetic energy is energy of motion. So "heat" is all about whether the molecules in the material are "jiggling" slow or fast. There are three main ways that thermal energy can be transferred:
1. Radiation: vibrating charged particles are the source of EM waves. The EM wave propagates until it encounters other particles that resonate with the wave's particular frequency, then the wave and its energy are absorbed. The is how the sun's energy reaches Earth.
2. Conduction: the kinetic energy of the particles is transferred through physical collisions. ie: hot, high energy particles of hot air outside a wall collide with molecules in the wall, transferring kinetic energy. The particles in the wall collide with each other until molecules on the inside surface of the wall collide with air in the room. Then the people inside turn up the AC and wish they had better insulation in their walls.
3. Convection: heat is transferred through the actual movement of material. For example: some idiot opens the window on a cold windy day and low energy molecules from outside move in. Or a pocket of hot water in the bottom of a pan moves up, carrying its internal energy with it.
DT would have us believe that the free movement of water inside the Earth is responsible for the Earth's climate, more so than heat transfer from the sun's radiation. There are many, oh so many obvious WRONGS to point out here that I can't believe I actually have to do it.
First: you know that big swing in temperature that hits a peak and trough at around 2 pm and 2 am? Yeah, that's from radiation. Please, show me a place where geothermal effects are more powerful than that.
Second: you know that 12 month cycle that hits a peak and trough in roughly July and January? Ditto.
Third: convection requires free motion of the hot/cold material. If fluids were able to move freely in the Earth's crust, how come we have all those trapped fluids? Aquifers, oil reservoirs, gas reservoirs. Why would oil companies need to frak to get the fluids out if they were free to move and convect? Yeah, that's right. Fluids have limited movement inside solid rock.
Fourth: How much of the crust even has any kind of fluid in it? The Moho (look it up DT, unless your best friend geology is sitting next to you whispering in your ear) is about 40 km down. There sure as hell isn't any liquid water below that, and yet the source of the Earth's internal heat is far far below the crust. So how is that water convecting the heat up so effectivly?
Oh right. You must have gotten your science from watching The Core...
ETA a fifth: DT could make a point by showing evidence of variations in the Earth's internal heat that fit the Earth's past climate cycles. Note that he does no such thing.
Meanwhile, Earth's orbital cycles = the Milankovitch cylces - fit the ice age pattern quite well.
Don't believe me. Believe the evidence.
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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Kiki - I finally remembered to bring the pertinent book home. It'll take me a little to boil things down and give you actual numbers.
In essence: Ruddiman estimates the amount of CO2 and CH4 that would be needed to explain the anomalies in the figures I posted above. Then he does some estimates. It's actually an interesting read, tracking human development and how various crops spread.
CO2: land clearing for agriculture started about 8000 years ago. It meant lots of trees down - CO2 released in the burning, and less CO2 processed with the trees gone. He uses the area of the cleared land to calculate the amount of CO2 released, and finds that it can explain the anomaly.
CH4: methane comes from rotting plants, right? Rice paddies started about 5000 years ago, about when CH4 deviated from the natural cycle. He does some rough calcs to show that the size of rice paddies in Asia could explain the amount of CH4 in the anomaly.
I will try to give you numbers, but it'll take some thought to make it clear and concise. He spends several chapters presenting his evidence, with much detail and many references related to the human/agriculture development.
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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Thanks for getting back to me. I'm a little pressed for time - just finished a major project which pretty much consumed my life for the last 3 months, and in about a week I have to go back east. Sigh. I like having a job, I even like my job, I just wish I could take a vacation some time this year. I have to say, it all used to be easier when I was younger. Anyway, when I get back it may just be easier for me to get the book(s). Could you do me a BIG favor? Could you PM me the title(s) you found most informative? I'd appreciate it, and in my email they will be in an easy to find, secure place.
Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?
Yeah, me neither....
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The technical details of this go way over my head, but once again I will state quite frankly that I feel the whole bloody lot of you are overcomplicating a simple situation.
Don't pollute your living space.
Really, is that so damn hard a concept for anyone to master ?
Does it really require all this hullabaloo ?
Maybe it's just me, but I figure that's yanno...
Obvious ?
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
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