Reavers!

POSTED BY: zoid
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 16:24
VIEWED: 10220
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LJOSALF

Thursday, April 8, 2004 2:45 AM

The engine doesn't have to explode for the result to be disastrous--just seize up or burn up. Out of Gas shows the results of something like that happening. You lose your engine deep in the black and you suffocate or freeze to deat--if you're lucky--waiting for rescue (unlikely in the event you are a Reaver ship). If you're not lucky, you burn to death. Near planetfall, you might find yourself auguring in instead of making that controlled descent your flight instructor kept hammering home. Your thrust might go all asymetrical on you sending you off in an unexpected and unwelcome direction before the engine blows out altogether. Oh, yeah, catastrophic engine failure could get all kinds of messy.

Ljosalf

The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
Marcel Proust (1871 - 1922)

ANKHAGOGO

Thursday, April 8, 2004 4:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LeMat:
While I think your possible explanation for the origins of the Reavers is well thought out, Zoid, I think it is wrong.
I think that from a dramatic stand point, you are very right that the Indians in older Westerns are similar to the Reavers. I personally think of the Reavers in terms of the boys (good, civilized, English boys) in Lord of the Flies and the Vikings or some other raiding culture

There was an "origins of Reavers" thread a while back, but I am somewhat technologically impaired and don't know how to link it in, so I'll repeat my thoughts here on what I said there..

My idea is that Reavers were originally militia, stationed out beyond the edge of civilization, probably to keep intrepid (read: stupid) people from travelling into nothingness, or to keep "someone" from coming into civilization. (We know there won't be aliens -- they don't.)
I'm thinking of a deal vaguely like the movie "The Thing" -- a group of men out in the middle of nowhere, with little or no contact with anyone but each other. One little thing goes wrong, fingers start being pointed, and suddenly, it is "Lord of Flies", but with adult, military men who are armed,very,very bored, and pretty much completely isolated. After a certain point in the reorganization of the microcosm (what a sentence!), it makes sense that they'd go prowling after those who were weaker. Now we don't know how long there have been Reavers, or rumours of Reavers, but I think that might explain the age of at least that one ship --perhaps it's a ship that came to re-supply the outpost that they seized after doing God-knows-what to the crew.

I do see the parallels to the Indians of the Old West, but that's so obvious (to me, at least) that I'm not convinced Whedon would go the "they're only defending their territory and everyone's unfairly demonized them" route.
I think that Whedon's more going for the psychological affect the idea of the Indians had on settlers, and particualarly people back East, who only heard the really bad stuff, not the actual "they're a fully formed civilized society with some bad members who get all the publicity" anle.
But he does like to pull the "there's always an exception to the rule" card, otherwise known as the "not all demons are bad" rule, so I wouldn't be entirely shocked to run across a Reaver with a soul

at some point.

"You're usin' wiles on me!"

VETERAN

Thursday, April 8, 2004 4:38 AM

I like the freelance terroist idea.

HARDWARE

Thursday, April 8, 2004 1:38 PM

You want to know what I think?

I think Reavers are religious fanatics led by a charismatic figure. Someone like Rasputin the mad monk. Picture a religious zealot going wandering in the wilderness, in this case deep into the black. Out there he finds something. Maybe himself, maybe god, maybe aliens, hell, maybe he just hallucinates when his atmo goes bad.

So, the wandering lunatic comes back to the rim of human civilization and finds a camp of bandits. No leaders, just a group of outlaws with the strongest and meanest in charge. Now charismatic madman comes to town and kills the strongest of the bunch, or maybe he just lures them all in with his charisma.

I think it was very astute of Joss to use canibalism for his "monsters". Once you've crossed that threshhold voluntarily there's no turning back. Who wants to be your friend if they know you've eaten human flesh when there was real food laying about? It is an initiation rite that there is no turning back from. Maybe the reason the survivor from Bushwhacked went mad is because he was forced to eat the flesh of his friends and family?

You want to add the religious spin to it... how easy is it pervert the Christian "flesh of Christ, blood of Christ"? Imagine that surivior tied down and made to witness his friends being tortured and killed. Even worse, imagine the many surivors on that ship being lined up and the first one is offered a chance to eat the flesh of their dead kin. They refuse and are slowly tortured to death in front of the other survivors. Then their flesh is offered to the next person in line. The one who does it isn't harmed in any other way, but made to watch the others all refuse to eat human flesh. If he is not the last, then he has to watch all that with the shame of being unharmed, having eaten human flesh, and maybe the contempt of the others who haven't been killed yet or the forgiveness of those who are being tortured to death for refusing. It is no wonder he went mad.

{Joss, if you're reading this and want to use any ideas, just give me a credit. ;) }

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

BADGERSHAT

Thursday, April 8, 2004 7:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:

Perhaps -- and this is a stretch -- the new worlds upon which the Earth settlers performed terraforming and established colonies were not uninhabited? Perhaps some form of hive mind microorganism inhabited one or more of the planets. When these come into contact with human life, they invade the body and eventually take over the mind of the victim. Hence the delay btween finding the survivor and his 'conversion' into a Reaver.

While I'm shooting in the dark here, what if the 'hive' don't care about radiation poisoning, because a human body is just a vehicle to them, and their use of it wears it out pretty quickly anyway. They only need to make sure they get a fresh supply of humans, some for food and some to supply new bodies for the ones they're burning out. This would explain Reaver raids of human colonies, the stated fact that their territories are spreading, and why sometimes they would attack, others not, depending on whether or not they "are hungry".

...Or just needing a new set of wheels?

What if Reavers aren't the 'Injuns'... What if the native life form of the local region of space -- inhabiting men's bodies -- is?

P.S.
I know this theory may be reminiscent of "Ghosts of Mars", but then again, so was the physical appearance of the one 'converted' Reaver we've seen...

Respectfully,
zoid

Honestly, I gotta say I think this can;t be true, with NO disrespect to the ever-dilligent zoid. And the reason I say this is, Lord Whedon (does that sound too simpering?) made it very clear that this is TOTALLY non-"alien" oriented, just humans exploring. I know, maybe we find this organism in the exploration process, but I think it's just too simplified for the mind of Joss Whedon.

It's probably a lot more in-depth and psychological, like the endless depths of space have some horrible effect (didn't Zoe say something about going to the edge of space or somesuch? I can't recall, but there was something).

Sort of, a little tiny bit, like "Event Horizon" where they discover something that drives them all bats

t... except not really like that, either... simply the closest similarity I can come up with.

But anyway, I think Reavers are along the line of people who have seen into the depths of Hell and lived to regret it.

But I wonder, do Reavers reproduce? And if so, are their offspring sane and go nuts, or is whatever makes Reavers nuts passed on genetically? Hmmm... intriguing... could open up a whole new forum on the whole "Product of my environment" thing. At least the super-violent child of a Reaver has a better excuse than some kid who blames video games.

Okay, enough rambling.

***************************
"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

BLAZINGBUG

Thursday, April 8, 2004 9:44 PM

I think we've been told exactly what Reavers are. I just think it's hard to accept.

It doesn't seem to matter what kind of sci-fi you have, almost none of them seem to touch on the idea that maybe not all of humanity is ready to go into space.

That what Reavers are. That portion of humanity who have seen something with their own eyes that they cannot comprehend... the true vastness of space. It shattered them... the "realization" of the insignificance of their lives. Now, all they live for is to bring that "realization" to others. Mostly by using them for their basest needs, food, sex, clothing... but occasionally by forcing one to see as they do.

To paraphrase Mal, they saw the nothing, and now the nothing is within them.

Like I said, I think it's hard to accept. We'd rather place the blame on the government, alien microbes, radiation, or something else.

Anything other than the darkness that lies within us all.

But then that's what I think makes Reavers truly frightening.

"Wacky fun..."

EMBERS

Thursday, April 8, 2004 9:55 PM

Badgershat: I thought we saw an example of Reaver reproduction on the show: where someone goes so completely insane from the fear and violence of a Reaver attack than they self-mutilate themselves and become a Reaver.

I thought the lack of core confinement would mean radiation throughout the ship causing all kinds of cancer/mutations as well...but that isn't really very scientific because normally constant exposure would end up bringing death.

I do agree with Talvin, Joss said there are no aliens and I think he is going to stick to that, so I don't believe Reavers are non-humans...but they are violently insane humans.

Interestingly enough my theory ties in with early Indian mythology:
There is a theory running around Sociologists that the Anasazi (translated as Ancient Enemy) who appearantly abandonded their pueblos and cliff dwellings 700 years ago may have become canibals... Killing each other and driving other Indian nations out of the area as well.

eta: Blazingbug: I didn't see your post when began working on my reply...and I do agree w/you, I think that the vastness of space is too much...and I am actually satisfied w/Joss' (Mal's) explanation

ZOID

Thursday, April 8, 2004 11:38 PM

Great posts all!

Okay, I admit -- as I did in my original post -- that the "hive mind" micobial invader was perhaps far-fetched. But, I was really just trying to think of a way to give JW an out.

As a child, I was exposed to many Westerns (my Dad, God rest his soul, loved 'em), and the Native Americans in them received a disproportional characterization as being warlike and murderous. Some undoubtedly were, but most were not.

The first movie I can recall that escaped this negative stereotype was "Little Big Man", with Dustin Hoffman. Later, as a PoliSci major at UofH (lo, these many years ago), I was stunned to learn that our American system of government, with its Executive, Legislative and Judicial Branches, its system of checks and balances was copied by our Forefathers from the League of the Iroquois!

While researching this response on the Internet, I was surprised to find this citation, at:
http://www.senecaindians.com/seneca_tribal.htm

Quote:

"The Seneca were also great conquerors, highly skilled at warfare, and having been given guns by the Dutch colonists, were fierce adversaries to any other tribe who tried to resist their takeover. One of the distinctive features of the Iroquois warriors' appearance was their hair, which they kept shaved in "Mohawk" fashion, and their heavily tattooed bodies. Iroquois warriors were also believed to have participated in ritual cannibalism, and were also know to torture their prisoners.

"Ironically, Iroquois politics were the most sophisticated in all of the North-American Native cultures; the Seneca, with the exception of one tribe (The Tonawanda), having adopted a democratic form of government after years of questionable leadership by Chiefs who had come into their positions out of lineage rather than virtue. The Seneca women were in charge of elections, and decided who was to become tribal leader, Leaders usually held their posts for life, but could be removed if they became corrupt or proved to be incompetent; the Seneca political system also included a constitution, which is believed to have been the model for the American constitution."

Umm, maybe the Reavers are literally bloodthirsty, not just territorial?

Still, the broad-stroke treatment that Native Americans have received in Westerns belies their actual history, in which they saved the European settlers from starvation at Plymouth Rock (see also, "Thanksgiving") and Jamestown (which repaid the debt by later becoming the first port for African slaves in the continental US).

I was just hoping that JW was coming from a different angle on the whole 'Injuns' thing, that they were only engaging in savagery to protect their territories; but then again, he included slavery in Firefly, too...

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

BLAZINGBUG

Friday, April 9, 2004 1:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Still, the broad-stroke treatment that Native Americans have received in Westerns belies their actual history, in which they saved the European settlers from starvation at Plymouth Rock (see also, "Thanksgiving") and Jamestown (which repaid the debt by later becoming the first port for African slaves in the continental US).

I was just hoping that JW was coming from a different angle on the whole 'Injuns' thing, that they were only engaging in savagery to protect their territories; but then again, he included slavery in Firefly, too...

I'm thinking he is taking a different angle. Yeah, Native Americans got a bad rap in old Westerns, but since "Little Big Man" that has faded away. You can't have a Native American bad guy in a movie anymore unless the good guy is also a product of their culture. And usually you end up with someone "learning their lesson."

Joss has made the Reavers into the old time "Injuns" who you couldn't put into a movie or TV show nowadays. He's made them pure bad guys, unremorseful and unredeemable, but also unilateral with no racial, cultural, or religious ties to their barbarism.

They're simply the darkness that lies within mankind with no exceptions.

Or that's how I see it at least.

"Wacky fun..."

ZOID

Friday, April 9, 2004 1:56 AM

BlazingBug:

You wrote:

Quote:

Joss has made the Reavers into the old time "Injuns" who you couldn't put into a movie or TV show nowadays. He's made them pure bad guys, unremorseful and unredeemable, but also unilateral with no racial, cultural, or religious ties to their barbarism.

They're simply the darkness that lies within mankind with no exceptions.

Never let it be said that I'm single-minded; you've convinced me, and thanks. My memories were coloring my reactions to the obvious parallel of Reavers and 'Injuns'. I was experiencing a conditioned aversion to the stereotype of yesteryear, without considering that JW might be just making a statement about Mankind's capacity for brutality, irrespective of cultural identity or values.

It's a true statement, and one with value. Thanks again.

If, on the other hand, we meet a Reaver named 'Red Jacket', grrrr... ;)

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

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