Real World Event Discussions

Canada panics over overpopulation

POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Monday, June 15, 2026 05:17
VIEWED: 5416
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GINOBIFFARONI

Monday, December 21, 2009 8:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Some things it seems, however, are too deeply wired into us that escaping them may not be possible. Sadly.

Somethings sure

Fight / Flee

or Gathering and nesting

but it is instinct... how you act on those instincts is still moderated by the reasoning part of the brain, so despite compulsions to act or react a certain way experience can allow us to alter or even reverse that instinct.

Fire for example, I think we all know at a base level it is dangerous, but we still live and work with it, the degree of confidence is proportional to the depth of experience...

Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists

Lets party like its 1939

NIKI2

Monday, December 21, 2009 9:06 PM

Let me put it another way: Some things we can deal with consciously, others are subconscious, and some of those are so hard wired into us, we have yet to overcome them. Territoriality, fear of the "other", male-female communication, etc.

Many, if not most, people go about their daily lives not even aware of the subconscious ones, and/or not caring to resist them.

Howzat? ;o)

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, December 22, 2009 12:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Some things it seems, however, are too deeply wired into us that escaping them may not be possible. Sadly.

Folks want you to believe that, though.

I give that depending on which folk one is talking about (Congress for example) there's some humans I'd say weren't much brighter than a squirrel, sure...

But as far as how much is "wired" and not, that's a longish debate that's only recently come to prominence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_versus_nurture

Thing is, I have always looked askance at folk who keep tellin me humans are wicked, nasty sociopaths who need to be controlled "for their own good" along with a heap of social darwinist crap - cause those offering to do said controlling are always the ones espousing those beliefs - AND watching evidence that humans are NOT like that, not born like that, but warped and twisted INTO that by our social and education systems, from point blank range, has convinced me it's utterly not true.

Human instinct is something far different than what it's made out to be, Rosseau had it, and Kropotkin nailed it out of the park.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RousseauWasRight

And, must read, this one.
Kropotkin's Mutual Aid
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/kropotkin/mutaidcontents
.html

Recent experiments, one of which was posted here, have shown both that earlier experiments on behavior were set-up and unscientific, and experiments on people "socialised" by our social and education models invariably load in the direction of Milgram or Stanford effects, but when done prior to, or in the absence of such negative socialisation, show that humans are by nature cooperative and helpful.

Hell, place something just out of reach and ask a bystander to hand it to you - PURE REFLEX sends them to do it, even if they check themselves and refuse, you can SEE what the natural inclination is.

So, there's stuff that's wired, and then there's stuff that's taught - but when we teach compliance through fear, backstabbing, treachery and conformity to repulsive moral standards straight from the cradle to adulthood, what the hell can one really expect ?

-Frem
http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php

NIKI2

Tuesday, December 22, 2009 1:04 AM

Quote:
I have always looked askance at folk who keep tellin me humans are wicked, nasty sociopaths who need to be controlled "for their own good" along with a heap of social darwinist crap

Oh, heavens, me too. But read "Men Are From Mars" and tell me some thing aren't hard-wired subconscious genetic remnants from caveman days...

JAYNEZTOWN

Tuesday, December 22, 2009 1:28 PM

I applaud Canada for being one of the few countries with a sensible population density

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

"The 'inconvenient truth' overhanging the U.N.'s Copenhagen conference is not that the climate is warming or cooling, but that humans are overpopulating the world"

It then goes on to suggest "A planetary law, such as China's one-child policy"

While I agree with the first statement 100%
agree well ...sort of ... if we had Cold-Fusion and other scifi devices perhaps we would not put pressure on the planet

I don't agree the Chinese solution is the way,
However the problem with the States and other countries is you have too many politically correct groups, too many religious groups

Nobody wants to see birth control pills in the schools, you start talking about abortion or contraception or limiting the size of families and some people start calling you the next
Adolf Hitler

Preventing people having babies is not a politically correct thing to talk about

but its time we did talk about it and do something about it

maybe its a greed and resource and war thing then add more people

Over-Population is this Planet's Number 1 Problem

if people are not enlightened and fall into status of greed, fighting and invasions, more of the Populations adds more of the problems

an 'Enlightened' population would not be 'Overpopulated'

if you move forward with science there can be better ways to make food, industry, farm, resource but it takes a skilled educated culture, Malthusianism expect the worse of humanity, it is the theory that population growth is potentially exponential, according to the Malthusian growth model, nasty greed energy people fight and eat each other.

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 4:33 AM

Magonsdaughter,

America is a third world country. Somalia is the poorest nation on earth. It's not a fair comparison, esp. given the collapse of the Somali currency. This isn't Korea. I live reasonably well, because I have my own business and still earn less than the poverty level, which is essential, remaining poor is the only way to live in the US, and of course, I'm an uneducated ignoramus and so I carry no debt. I do not envy my fellow Americans, who are largely in a condition I consider little better than slavery. Still, I'm in critical need of healthcare, which I cannot get, in spite of having health insurance.

I think your perception of America is way off base. Any american would be far better off living in Eastern Europe, even the former Yugoslavia, or probably Mexico or Cuba. I'd say that most of what we used to call "The third world" is better off than the US currently. Most Americans live in quarters that are smaller than a commercial rest room, and less clean. Also, they carry more debt that they will save in their lifetimes.

Far from land of plenty, or home of the free, it is a slave state. For most. I feel relatively lucky. Aside from the whole dying part.

Nik,

Not guessing on squirrels. So you've seen squirrels, but they don't touch the ground. Please feel free to accept facts and accepted theories of intellectuals, but don't expect me to give them any more credence than your average edict from any other religious zealot. I have watched squirrels for years. They don't bury several "caches" they bury individual nuts, at the proper depth for planting, and a great number turn into trees and bear fruit within a couple of years, well within their own lifetimes. Given that they're roughly as intelligent as humans, the idea that this, so essential to their survival, is a concept that eludes them is preposterous.

I'm aware they cache multiple stocks in deep burrows, or warrens, and have a great deal of deception, they're clever little buggers. They also cooperate of course, it's not all competition. But they also plant trees. This is like the issue over whether parrots know what they're saying when they talk: Some people just refuse to believe what is right in front of their eyes, even if it persists life long.

Almost nothing I've read in any academic source has actually been accurate. You can prove anything you want, theoretically. By comparison, the ranting of lunatics on the internet, such as Pirate News, (no offense man,) is a bastion of knowledge. They're wrong about 90% of the time, which overall is a pretty good record compared to any official source.

Animals are far smarter than we think they are. All animal intelligence tests show that there are a fair number of animals that are substantially smarter than humans.

Academia hates this idea. This is because academics are at heart all religious human supremacists. This is why almost every college science class begins with: The difference between human and animals is... and then some philosophical BS.

Someone just posted something to the effect that the carrying capacity of the Earth vis a vis mice had nothing to do with that of humans. There's no difference between a mouse and a human other than metabolic rate, size, and the whole furry belly long tail thing. But biochemically, no. They have many more jumping genes than humans, but that won't effect their dietary staples. A man is a mouse, just a large one with a slow metabolism.

A man and a mouse are very similar to a squirrel. The first humanoid was prosimian, who was a very squirrel-like creature.

Oh, and the natural world doesn't work entirely by "instinct" this is a myth thought up by human supremacists. Most species have brains, and use them. Some have fairly advanced civilizations. Some far more advanced than ours.

If you go by brain to bodyweight ratio, the most brainy animal is a species of mouse, and is 3:1 ahead of the second highest competitor, which is another species of mouse.

Not only have I watched squirrels plant trees for many decades, I have watch

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 5:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Magonsdaughter,

America is a third world country. Somalia is the poorest nation on earth. It's not a fair comparison, esp. given the collapse of the Somali currency. This isn't Korea. I live reasonably well, because I have my own business and still earn less than the poverty level, which is essential, remaining poor is the only way to live in the US, and of course, I'm an uneducated ignoramus and so I carry no debt. I do not envy my fellow Americans, who are largely in a condition I consider little better than slavery. Still, I'm in critical need of healthcare, which I cannot get, in spite of having health insurance.

I'm using America as an example because per capita you consume the most in the world...again not disputing that there is inequities in your society, but the facts support your consumption as a nation. But if it puts you on the defensive, I could also use any first world country in argument as well. Most people in the world would give their right arm (or in many cases their right kidney) to live in a country like America or Australia or any country in Western Europe. They sure as hell aren't risking life and limb because they love baseball. For many to live in poverty in these countries is to live pretty well. It is fair to compare first and third world countries, because that is what my whole argument which you apparently missed is based on. If every nation consumed per capita what we consume, then we'd whittle through our resources in no time.

Someone born elsewhere once said to me that I didn't realise that being born in a country like Australia (or America or Britian et al) you've pretty much won the lottery in the eyes of most of the world population.

NIKI2

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 5:39 PM

Quote:
remaining poor is the only way to live in the US….who are largely in a condition I consider little better than slavery….who are largely in a condition I consider little better than slavery….it is a slave state….Most Americans live in quarters that are smaller than a commercial rest room, and less clean….Given that they're roughly as intelligent as humans, the idea that this, so essential to their survival, is a concept that eludes them is preposterous….This is because academics are at heart all religious human supremacists….There's no difference between a mouse and a human other than metabolic rate, size, and the whole furry belly long tail thing. But biochemically, no….

Statements such as these are why we are diametrically opposed on almost all issues. You seem to have a propensity for believing what you believe, despite any evidence to the contrary, and dismissing science as easily as any hard-core evangelical. There’s no debating you because any scientific source quoted is dismissed out of hand.

Quote:
All animal intelligence tests show that there are a fair number of animals that are substantially smarter than humans.

Proof, please. Everything I’ve seen is the opposite. Yes, some animals have a lot of intelligence, WITHIN THEIR REALM, but to say there’s no difference is patently absurd, in my opinion. Dolphins are extremely intelligent, as are other species, but to say they are “substantially smarter” is beyond the bounds of reality, to me.

Quote:
Please feel free to accept facts and accepted theories of intellectuals, but don't expect me to give them any more credence than your average edict from any other religious zealot….

That just goes to prove my point; I’ve didn’t talk about “intellectuals”, but “scientists’. To dismiss all scientists, along with the scientific method, makes debate impossible and is so far out in left field that it gives you, to me and possibly others, no credence on most issues. Your single biggest conspiracy theory seems to be that religion rules every aspect of everything and that you know more than any other source.

I think Magon has it FAR more rationally:

Quote:
Most people in the world would give their right arm (or in many cases their right kidney) to live in a country like America or Australia or any country in Western Europe. They sure as hell aren't risking life and limb because they love baseball… For many to live in poverty in these countries is to live pretty well....Someone born elsewhere once said to me that I didn't realise that being born in a country like Australia (or America or Britian et al) you've pretty much won the lottery in the eyes of most of the world population.

That is the fact, pure and simple.

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, December 24, 2009 4:36 AM

Niki

I appreciate your input, but not your insults. It's not my job to educate you. You have the internet, and I don't have time. I am always seeking the truth, but in areas where I have doubt. I don't think anything I posted is in any serious doubt.

Dolphins are about as intelligent as humans, most cetaceans and cephalopods are smarter. Rodents too, depending on your measuring stick.

What is beyond the bounds of reality to you is well recorded scientific fact to me. To debate it would be as useless as to debate against an argument that the Earth is flat. I suspect your background here is academic, and I mean no slight to say that it is therefore academic. What you have been told, which is what academia is, a collection of what you've been told, in lectures and in books, is itself a form of religious creationism which pretends to be science. If you actually study science in a scientific manner, you'll find reality bears no resemblance to its academic counterpart.

If you count hive minds, I'd plant ants at the top, but as single individuals, the octopus and squid vie for top spot. Whales are probably smarter than humans, and mice certainly win the brain to bodyweight ratio, the learning curve tests, and the speed of thought. If a mice lived as long us, we probably wouldn't rule the world.

As for the human political system, it's not particularly more advanced than that of termites. Given that the human brain is a million times the size of that of a termite doesn't say much for our political system.

My supposition that intellectualism is a religion and not a science is based on experience. It clings to its dogma like nothing else. It lives in abject terror that it might have to let its accepted premises stand the test of actual trial and error.

Oh, and of course, you seem to be under the illusion that I'm a christian or something.

Quote:

I think Magon has it FAR more rationally:

Quote:
Most people in the world would give their right arm (or in many cases their right kidney) to live in a country like America or Australia or any country in Western Europe.

well, perhaps they would, but that doesn't make them right.

But to put America, Australia and Western Europe into one sentence as equals is beyond ignorance.

As I said before, America isn't Korea or Japan. We're not the land of plenty. Maybe we were once. Now we're a destitute nation of subsistence slavery. If you don't believe me, visit the US sometime. Or just read the statitstics.

The average american works without benefits for wages that fail to cover the interest on their debt. They live in a small apt or trailer, and they own nothing. Debts outweigh assets, and they achieve economic freedom in poverty at the time of retirement. Statistically, two years later, they are dead. That's just raw statistics. Hardly a utopia.

Quote:

...won the lottery in the eyes of most of the world population.

That is the fact, pure and simple.

No, it's far from fact. In fact, it's nothing but pure opinion. It may be a majority opinion. There are a lot of myths about the US, and Magons may hold some of them, maybe you do to.

I was born into a world of nothing. The food we had was what we could buy with the pennies we could work for. We had no heat, and the winter temperatures went to 60 below zero. As you know I attended 4 years of formal education. As I have met many people from many places, I think the "fantasy america" is a naive notion. I don't disagree that many people hold it. I suspect most americans had a pretty similar experience to mine. It was common in parts of europe as well. A lot of countries in europe are substantially poorer than many in subsaharan africa.

A friend of mine who works for the UN and EU on a recent tour of the US said he was appalled by the standards of living of America, and how great the disparity was between that, and the myth of America. I allowed as, yes, it was basically a third world country. He turned to me and said "No, really, it's not. I've spent a lot of time in

GINOBIFFARONI

Thursday, December 24, 2009 6:43 PM

While I don't buy DT theory, I do think many animals are smarter than credit given them

http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8427000/8427974.stm

Chimps use cleavers and anvils as tools to chop food

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6948446.stm

Cleverest crows opt for two tools
( video is neat )

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8408233.stm

Octopus snatches coconut and runs

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7922120.stm

Chimps craft ultimate fishing rod