Real World Event Discussions

If we spent some of the magical Bail-Out money feeding the hungry peeps of the planet, would making a better world buy us any street cred?

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Thursday, October 8, 2009 03:41
VIEWED: 7088
PAGE 12 of 13

SIGNYM

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 7:35 PM

Yeah, what's this delusion that "free markets" have the answer to everything? I can't think of a single example of a so-called "free market" which hasn't devolved towards monopolism and economic tyranny. I can at least point to the EU as a successful model of government.

GEEZER

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 9:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Yeah, what's this delusion that "free markets" have the answer to everything?

They probably don't, any more than whatever system you're espousing has the answer to everything. I tend to believe that there would be less economic disruption if the government got out of cozy deals with players in the market - "free" or otherwise. Crop and dairy subsidies come to mind. I'd prefer they go back to just regulating and such.

Quote:
I can't think of a single example of a so-called "free market" which hasn't devolved towards monopolism and economic tyranny. I can at least point to the EU as a successful model of government.

Interesting, as the economies of most EU countries are generally described as "Free Enterprise", "Private Enterprise", "Free Market", "Market" or some such variation in, for example, the CIA World Factbook. So are the EU countries all economic tyrannies?

Wiki's article on the EU states:
"The EU operates a competition policy intended to ensure undistorted competition within the single market. The Commission as the competition regulator for the single market is responsible for antitrust issues, approving mergers, breaking up cartels, working for economic liberalisation and preventing state aid."

And under Economic Liberalism:
"Economic liberalism is the economic component of classical liberalism. It is the political and economic philosophy that supports and promotes the economic system of capitalism, in the laissez-faire sense. Opposing government intervention in the economy, and supporting the maximum of free trade and competition, it contrasts with mercantilism, Keynesianism and socialism."

"Keep the Shiny side up"

KWICKO

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 11:00 PM

Quote:

Interesting, as the economies of most EU countries are generally described as "Free Enterprise", "Private Enterprise", "Free Market", "Market" or some such variation in, for example, the CIA World Factbook. So are the EU countries all economic tyrannies?

Interesting, since the tea-baggers always bring up the EU contries as the perfect example of the "socialist" agenda they DON'T want the U.S. having any part of. So are the EU countries all socialist tyrannies? Heck, I'll make it even simpler: Are ANY of the EU countries socialist tyrannies?

By the way, you want "free-market capitalism", yet you want the government to only be in it for the regulation aspects. You do realize that the second you introduce government regulation, you've tossed free-market capitalism out the window, right?

While you're looking for that shining example of a pure socialist system, see if you can find any examples of a pure free-market capitalist society in existence.

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

RUE

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 11:15 PM

We've had this discussion before. At least two times. I think it came down to describing most European countries as 'soft socialism' - regulating business, preserving the environment, and providing for the people it is elected by. (What a concept ! Government looking out for the interests of the citizens ! Unlike the US brand of crypto-capitalism - where government looks out for the interests of business on the theory that what's good for business is good for the country, and, one suggests, must therefore be good for the people.)

ETA: The distinction made was that as the US is not 'pure' capitalism but is still described as a form of capitalism, European countries are not 'pure' socialism but may be described as a form of socialism.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

GEEZER

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 11:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Interesting, since the tea-baggers always bring up the EU contries as the perfect example of the "socialist" agenda they DON'T want the U.S. having any part of. So are the EU countries all socialist tyrannies? Heck, I'll make it even simpler: Are ANY of the EU countries socialist tyrannies?

I've said again and again that no country in the EU has a Socialist economy - economies being what my post was about. Don't know why you'd think I believe they are Socialist at all.

Quote:
By the way, you want "free-market capitalism", yet you want the government to only be in it for the regulation aspects. You do realize that the second you introduce government regulation, you've tossed free-market capitalism out the window, right?

So maybe I want a "More-or-less Free-market Capitalism". I don't expect pure anything. "Free-Market" economic theorists posit that in a perfect "Free-Market" world there would be non-governmental mechanisms to control trusts, insure product safety and purity, etc. Since it's not a perfect world, we've developed government to do that stuff.

Quote:
While you're looking for that shining example of a pure socialist system, see if you can find any examples of a pure free-market capitalist society in existence.

Pure socialist system? Why would I look for something that doesn't exist?
Not going to find pure examples of either. However, you can find a lot more examples of more-or-less Capitalist economies than more-or-less Socialist ones.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 11:38 PM

Quote:
Interesting, as the economies of most EU countries are generally described as "Free Enterprise", "Private Enterprise", "Free Market", "Market" or some such variation in, for example, the CIA World Factbook. So are the EU countries all economic tyrannies?

You want no government, right Geezer?

Quote:
As to Western nations and corporations, that's why I'd like to see a return to free-market capitalism, and get the government/business Corporatism link broken.

Or at least, that is what capito-libertarains claim to desire. So under your scheme, where is "the government" which regulates business?

GEEZER

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 11:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
We've had this discussion before. I think it came down to describing most European countries as 'soft socialism' - regulating business, preserving the environment, and providing for the people it is elected by.

I describe them as Social Welfare states, but if you want to get "Socialism" in there somewhere, despite the fact their economies aren't socialist at all...

Quote:
Unlike the US brand of crypto-capitalism - where government looks out for the interests of business on the theory that what's good for business is good for the country, and, one suggests, must therefore be good for the people.)

Or what is called Corporatism, which I'd just as soon get rid of too, as I've noted above.

Although I wouldn't be surprised to find a little, or maybe more than a little, Corporatism in some EU governments. For example: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/02_43/b3805147.htm

"Keep the Shiny side up"

KWICKO

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 11:41 PM

Quote:
However, you can find a lot more examples of more-or-less Capitalist economies than more-or-less Socialist ones.

Interesting. I'd posit that if you've found a "more-or-less capitalist" society, it is by definition "more-or-less socialist" as well. The U.S. is one such example. I don't think you'll find "a lot more" of one than the other - I bet you'd find the exact same amount of both.

But it's good to hear that you agree that the tea-baggers have it completely wrong in their protests...

GEEZER

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 11:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You want no government, right Geezer? Or at least, that is what capito-libertarains claim to desire. So under your scheme, where is "the government" which regulates business?

I'm not a particularly doctrinaire libertarian. I'd like to see a good bit less government, but I doubt it's gonna happen any time soon. Therefore, I would like the government I'm stuck with to do as good a job, from my free-market perspective, as it can.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 11:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Interesting. I'd posit that if you've found a "more-or-less capitalist" society, it is by definition "more-or-less socialist" as well. The U.S. is one such example.

Okay, so you don't know what a Socialist economy is. Try googling "Socialist Economy" to find out and then come back to the discussion.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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