Wondering About Them Reavers...

POSTED BY: Yersinia
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 15:35
VIEWED: 13989
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YERSINIA

Thursday, September 24, 2009 12:53 AM

Okay, in "Bushwacked," Zoe says to Simon, about Reavers:

"If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins into their clothing. And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order."

Probably since my second "Firefly Marathon" (just finished #9 and am poised for #10), I've been wondering: If the Reavers are really THAT savage and brutal, then how come they haven't raped and eaten EACH OTHER -- into extinction? Also, if flying "without core containment" is "suicide," how come THAT hasn't killed them off? And on top of that, it seems they've maintained and developed spacefaring technology (as in the grapplers and other specialized technology for their raids) -- which IMO would require them to collaborate and cooperate with each other on a level which is way too civilized for their purported savagery.

I know, I know, I know, formidable and/or really frightening enemies make for better storytelling, and the Reavers certainly fit the bill here, but....well, I'm not so sure they make much SENSE -- not even with the BDM's explanation of their origins. I dunno, maybe had the series not been cancelled, we'd have gotten a better glimpse into "Reaver culture," but from what's shown in the series and BDM, they seem to be cardboard villians that we're supposed to accept pretty much without question as irredeemably evil and savage -- in the series, Shepherd Book is the only one who even suggests that they could actually be human beings, and in the BDM when it's told that they WERE human beings, who had the opposite-from-intended reaction to the Pax, well I still have the original "if they're that savage, how come they haven't brutally killed each other off?" question...

Whaddya all think, or, whaddya all know about Reavers that I don't?

~Yersinia.

"Call me if anyone interesting shows up..."

SIGMANUNKI

Thursday, September 24, 2009 5:36 AM

There are a few animals that are vicious killers (and kill for fun) that haven't killed themselves off yet. Though they tend to be solitary. There are also more mild types such as wolves. Etc.

I think that it should be pointed out that behaviour towards "outsiders" or "prey" can be very *very* different than behaviour towards the same. And we don't know what they are up to when they are by themselves. So, ...

At any rate, Joss is about the story. Which is why nothing was really explained. How did the ship work? I just does. Reavers? They're just there. Be scared.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

YERSINIA

Thursday, September 24, 2009 3:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
There are a few animals that are vicious killers (and kill for fun) that haven't killed themselves off yet. Though they tend to be solitary. There are also more mild types such as wolves. Etc.

I think that it should be pointed out that behaviour towards "outsiders" or "prey" can be very *very* different than behaviour towards the same. And we don't know what they are up to when they are by themselves. So, ...

At any rate, Joss is about the story. Which is why nothing was really explained. How did the ship work? I just does. Reavers? They're just there. Be scared.

Ummmm...hmmmmm. Yeah, thinking about it this way, I guess Reavers COULD be compared to wolves, in the sense that they raid/commit their atrocities in groups, and wolves hunt in packs. And, when it comes to a group's treatment of outsiders, throughout history there's been human cultures that looked upon members of other cultures or who practiced different religions (not to mention humans of other races!) as subhumans to be enslaved or exterminated, rather than as fellow human beings who deserve the same consideration and respect as their own do. So, OK. Thanks for helping me out on these aspects.

However, I still don't agree with the idea that a story is better because its creator leaves us in the dark about certain things, and in fact the more explanation into the inner workings there is, the story is even better in terms of depth and intensity. So while your suggestions about wolves and how some groups treat outsiders are a definite help for me in making sense of the Reavers, I still hope, that Joss would have eventually produced an episode or two with some actual glimpses of Reaver "culture" (as HE intended it to be) if the series had been able to go the original 7 seasons -- I think it would have made the show even better. On that note, about the workings of the ship:

I have zero in the way of mechanical aptitude -- it was my BOYFRIEND (a mechanical designer!) who wanted to know how the ship worked! So, since by the time I showed him my Firefly DVDs, I was already aware of the fact that the show only very rarely and vaguely even touched on those kinds of details, I actually said to him, "Oh, and don't ask me how the ship works, even THEY don't say so!" before I even started the first DVD for him. But, I had to repeat variations of that sentence a couple times anyway, and it still didn't stop him from noticing that the part Wash chucked at the junkyard ship in "Ariel" while they were preparing for the hospital heist was the same part which had been so desperately needed in "Out of Gas"! He noticed it right off and practically shouted his recognition -- I had to pause the DVD and re-look at it, but he was right.

So some of us out here DO appreciate these kinds of details and think they would add to, rather than detract from, the story.

"Call me if anyone interesting shows up..."

SIGMANUNKI

Friday, September 25, 2009 12:29 AM

I think that you need to be careful using the word "would" here. That's very absolute and quite frankly, there are many counter-examples of that. Star Trek, for instance, has many many many examples of the tech getting in the way of the story. But, it still kind of worked there, because the tech was a major driving force of (most of?) the plot lines. Tech also introduces a consistency nightmare. It's really, really hard to keep track of all that. In fact, the way the Stargate worked in SG-1 changed from the beginning of the series to the end. I believe because they had a story they wanted to tell, and sod consistency, eh.

At any rate, in Firefly, it's all about the characters. Joss basically used everything besides the characters as a vehicle that let him tell his story. If this were changed, and he started to explain the tech, etc, then it wouldn't be Firefly. It'd be more along the lines of Star Trek. And personally, I really *really* liked the fact that everything was about the characters instead of the next cool device, anomaly, etc.

So, although I agree that more detail /can/ add more to things, that's only a can. And with respect to Firefly, with the way that it was written, IMO, it would negatively effect the show as it would detract from the characters.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

TWO

Friday, September 25, 2009 2:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Yersinia:
I've been wondering: If the Reavers are really THAT savage and brutal, then how come they haven't raped and eaten EACH OTHER -- into extinction? Also, if flying "without core containment" is "suicide," how come THAT hasn't killed them off? And on top of that, it seems they've maintained and developed spacefaring technology (as in the grapplers and other specialized technology for their raids) -- which IMO would require them to collaborate and cooperate with each other on a level which is way too civilized for their purported savagery.

I know, I know, I know, formidable and/or really frightening enemies make for better storytelling, and the Reavers certainly fit the bill here, but....well, I'm not so sure they make much SENSE -- not even with the BDM's explanation of their origins.... I still have the original "if they're that savage, how come they haven't brutally killed each other off?" question...

I agree with you that flying without core containment does kill Reavers quickly. I agree it is suicidal. There must be some way to get new replacement people to involuntarily join the Reaver Fan Club or else the Club dies out. Firefly showed where Reavers come from in the third episode, Bushwhacked. You're suppose to be confused and misdirected because Mal is confused about Reavers. Joss Whedon doesn't give away all his Reaver secrets in the early episodes. That survivor is NOT a want-to-be Reaver. The survivor is a real-live Reaver. Mal says the survivor has been so traumatized that he is pretending to be Reaver. But what the hell does Mal know? He's no psychiatrist. It is as if the survivor says "Heil Hitler!" and joins the Nazi party after watching the Nazis torture his family to death. Mal is not talking sense.

Here is my guesses about how ordinary people who were never on Miranda become Reavers. Reavers don't have evil brain-parasites like on Star Gate, but it is something like that. They aren't demon possessed because that is just too silly for science fiction, but it is also something like that. Maybe Reavers could be Patternmasters from the science fiction novels by Octavia E. Butler, about a society of networked telepaths that one person controls, which explains why River is freaked out by Reavers; she doesn't want her mind controlled. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patternmaster

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is at
www.fileden.com/files/2008/8/13/2048723/Serenity-190pages.pdf

SIGMANUNKI

Friday, September 25, 2009 5:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by two:

Flying without core containment does kill Reavers quickly.

And where is that stated?

Quote:
Originally posted by two:

But what the hell does Mal know? He's no psychiatrist.

It's not complicated and psychiatry is no rocket science.

Quote:
Originally posted by two:

Here is my guesses about how ordinary people who were never on Miranda become Reavers.
...snip...

Wow, is that ever a (razor thin) stretch. I mean, that doesn't even remotely touch on anything that was in the series/movie.

Btw, there are lots of far more plausible explanations for River getting freaked out by Reavers. For instance, if we accept her telepathy(-like) abilities in the BDM, wouldn't hearing the Reavers thoughts be enough to freak someone out? I think so. Etc.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Friday, September 25, 2009 8:27 AM

1. Working around unsheilded radioactive nuclear material is unhealthy. The reactor on craft of the verse are apparently nuclear, have not seen info disputing this, but not exactly spelled out that I recall. Running without Core containment means unsheilded. Reproducing in the way we think would create more mutations. How many started after the Pax release? 30 Million was Miranda population, was it 300,000 or 30,000 that became reavers? Longevity is 120 years average, so dying within 10 years may be considered "quick" in the verse. In the past 12 years I don't think 30,000 have died off yet. It took several years fro many of thier ships to lose containment - it is not a normal condition.

2. Maintaining technology? not that hard if they had already the training when they were human - see most of the zombie films.
Creating technology? no, just use what they find aboard the ships they capture/pirate/raid.

TWO

Friday, September 25, 2009 1:27 PM

So... SIGMANUNKI ! The survivor of the Reaver raid in "Bushwhacked" (his name shall be Caspar Milquetoast) might be only a sick, little man under extreme stress who has delusions that he has become a Reaver. Caspar is simply a mass murderer, of Alliance doctors, with post-traumatic-stress syndrome. In that case, "seeing Reavers up close and personal" is a good enough explanation for Caspar's evil actions.

Or Caspar could be a genuine Reaver. He split his own tongue down the middle. OUCH! That has got to keep on hurting. The fact that Caspar put multiple piercings into his own face, without anesthesia, impressed me. Ouch! He cut up his own lips and forehead. Ouch! He has a mighty high tolerance for pain. Or else the makeup artist over decorated Caspar's face.

There is something weird going on inside Caspar's brain -- something much stranger than being criminally insane. "The Paxilon on Miranda made him crazy" is not an explanation for his evil behavior. Caspar wasn't on Miranda. If Firefly had lasted, we would have got a good explanation, but since it didn't, we have to imagine our own explanations.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is at
www.fileden.com/files/2008/8/13/2048723/Serenity-190pages.pdf

YERSINIA

Friday, September 25, 2009 3:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I think that you need to be careful using the word "would" here. That's very absolute and quite frankly, there are many counter-examples of that. Star Trek, for instance, has many many many examples of the tech getting in the way of the story. But, it still kind of worked there, because the tech was a major driving force of (most of?) the plot lines. Tech also introduces a consistency nightmare. It's really, really hard to keep track of all that. In fact, the way the Stargate worked in SG-1 changed from the beginning of the series to the end. I believe because they had a story they wanted to tell, and sod consistency, eh.

Guess I need to mention that by the time I was introduced to Firefly (this past July), I had been a hardcore Trekkie for three decades... so for me, adding tech details (per se) does indeed add depth to a story (and/or provide direction for additional stories). Stargate I never saw, so I have no knowledge from which to comment.

But -- where "tech" details are concerned, it's not entirely the scientific/mechanical (how the ships and technological gadgets work) ones which are actually crucial in terms of the storytelling (my boyfriend is the one who has greater appreciation for this end of it) -- yeah, I LIKE most of that stuff and find a lot of it helpful in adding depth/providing ground for new stories, but it's ALSO, in a big way, the cultural/sociological details of the non-human alien beings I liked so much and considered so riveting, blending THAT stuff into the stories. Scenes shot on the alien ships (later on even the aliens' home planets), or which included the Enterprise, DS9 or Voyager crew interacting with them and learning about their cultures IMO this gives way more insight into the characters of the enemies than just having them attack at every possible opportunity.

The Verse of Firefly has no non-human characters like Star Trek has Klingons, Romulans, Vulcans, and so on, but it does have the Reavers who are obviously different from "normal" humans, so what I'd have liked to have seen would have been occasional scenes aboard a Reaver ship about to begin a raid (or in process of one -- such as attaching that multi-snakelike booby trap thingie to snare or destroy rescue ships as they did in Bushwacked), stuff like that, every once in awhile -- not every single episode made (or even every single episode in which there were Reavers), but here and there in occasional episodes with Reavers, just enough to show us how Reavers interact with each other and what their "society" is like. That's the kind of thing which to me adds depth to the worldbuild and makes the storytelling even more meaningful on the character-driven plane.

And no, I don't think "would" is too absolutist a term to use here. Had Firefly not been cancelled, Joss Whedon would indeed have conceived and produced more episodes -- the actual storylines of which we cannot say since the show WAS cancelled so he didn't create the episodes. I had merely thought it would've been nice, and an enhancement of the show (had it lasted), IF one of the things Mr. Whedon would have expanded on through additional episodes would have been "Reaver society," that's all. (That, and of course Shepherd Book's mysterious past! )

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
1. Working around unsheilded radioactive nuclear material is unhealthy. The reactor on craft of the verse are apparently nuclear, have not seen info disputing this, but not exactly spelled out that I recall. Running without Core containment means unsheilded. Reproducing in the way we think would create more mutations. How many started after the Pax release? 30 Million was Miranda population, was it 300,000 or 30,000 that became reavers? Longevity is 120 years average, so dying within 10 years may be considered "quick" in the verse. In the past 12 years I don't think 30,000 have died off yet. It took several years fro many of thier ships to lose containment - it is not a normal conditi

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