Inara: more bad ass than she seems?
POSTED BY: Bytemite
UPDATED: Saturday, August 15, 2009 18:37
VIEWED: 17936
PAGE 10 of 11
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Originally posted by mal4prez:
AR -
I should say that I don't think my scenario is anything canon, but something that could be presented in an at least slightly believable way in fanfic.
Not believable to me, but I guess that's what fanfic is for?
I didn't think you considered this canonical fact, and I'm only arguing against it in terms of what seems illogical to me. :) Quote:
And I find it not completely preposterous. Perhaps because I don't believe in the nuclear family as the only or even the best way.
Do you realize that you are making a big assumption about this playing a role in my thoughts?
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I'm also harkening back to the way of old European nobility: they brought in a governess to raise and educate the children. For the governess, it's her ticket out of obscurity. She raises someone else's kids then has the means to marry or perhaps to live independently.
Which wouldn't really be The One Way for a young woman coming out of Companion school to make it in life.
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And I don't see it as inherently evil ont eh part of the wealthy parents. I think that, like the Companion/client relationship, this Nanny/client relationship could in general be a friendly, positive thing, where the forged relationships lasts throughout their lives. Only a few would go wrong, and they would be dealt with as Inara dealt with Ath.
But this wouldn't be just a nanny. This would be the biological mother of the child who basically raises it and is then expected to just hand it over. Whether relations might still be good afterwards, is a maybe, and it is entirely different from a governess with no such ambiguious ties to the child. My concern here is in the inevitably developing emotional ties, feelings of entitlement, regret, disputes in parental philosophies and the bazillion other sources of conflict. I don't see a few cases going wrong. I see most of them fraught with pain for the Companion involved, the child involved, the father involved...
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Sucks for the kids, but do you really believe that the nuclear family is a full guarantee that the kid will never get hurt? Odds are the same any way, I say.
Where did I ever mention the nucliear family or what would be better for the child? Where do you even get this from?
I'm not arguing about this in terms of family models. I'm arguing about inefficiency, lack of consideration for obvious factors and unethical pressure on the young women in question.
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Besides - the Guild is not perfect. Inara gets hurt while doing her job. It's a business that means well, but it's still a business. Shit happens, no matter where you go.
When does Inara get hurt doing her job? I see a vague potetial for it when people like Wing pass muster but end up aggressive, but we know very little about what the Guild is capable of doing in cases of actual attacks. Besides, those would indeed be rare incidents, whereas in a 12-year-committment motherhood rental relationship, there is hardly a question of "hurt" not arising, with no quick and flexible solutions.
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Again though, I tend to see the man/woman/child family model as one that's sure to get out-dated.
And again I wonder why you think this has anything to do with my argument.
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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
My reply was specifically to Mal4Prez's scenario with an entire different Companion branch set up. That's the thing I especially disagree with because I don't see it as remotely related to the Guild's business, and as an inefficient to downright unethical idea.
Many people in our present call Inara's business unethical. The Guild sees things differently. Who's to say they wouldn't change more than sex?
And I'm not many people in our present.
There's an exploitative quality to essentially raising young women who cannot truly make that judgment toward a very long-term committment that in
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AR -
Re the nuclear family, all I saw in your reply to me was that you assumed "more harm than good" without saying specifically why, so that's what I went with. I'm glad that wasn't your argument!
As for the attachment the biological mother forms: this is exactly what I find dramatically interesting, and this is where I find the similarity to Inara.
Inara is hurt by the client in the pilot episode. They have this nice sex and this nice talk and seem to be connected and intimate - emotionally I mean - but then he was that thing about rigging the clock. What an insult! So much for connection. Then the female client in War Stories - they have this nice talk about how we're connecting in a way men can't, and isn't this special, then (in a cut scene, but I find it important) Inara goes to the client's house to try and get help for Mal, the client doesn't even want to let Inara in.
Inara gives more than her body to these clients, she really puts herself into it and tries to make it a "bond". The only thing she's guaranteed to get in return is payment. Sometimes she gets more, sometimes she gets a little slap in the face. Companions have to be trained to be emotionally prepared for that.
So there - I think the Guild is already pretty heartless in expecting young girls to commit to this kind of life. I don't see it as a much bigger step to let them be surrogate moms. Again, surrogate moms happen already, as well as adoptions. And this happens with woman who have no idea of the terrible grief of separation awaiting them. At least in my version of Nannying, they can be fully prepared for what's to come.
I think this much kinder than allowing it to continue to happen as it does today. The surrogate mother is given power, preparation, and support.
And - please note that I specifically ruled out girls making such a choice at the age of 12. I also said there would be training and psychologists involved.
It's not like any girl off the street can walk in looking to make a buck. That situation would be exactly what the Guild is trying to avoid!
Quote:I never said it was. It would be a small group who wanted to do this and a smaller group who were deemed emotionally and physically capable of it.
Which wouldn't really be The One Way for a young woman coming out of Companion school to make it in life.
Quote:And how is this so very different from Inara's job? Sure as hell that's exploitive. It doesn't mean to be, and it tries to prevent Companions from being hurt, but it happens.Quote:
Many people in our present call Inara's business unethical. The Guild sees things differently. Who's to say they wouldn't change more than sex?
And I'm not many people in our present.
There's an exploitative quality to essentially raising young women who cannot truly make that judgment toward a very long-term committment that involves not just their minds and bodies but indeed their entire emotional household.
I set the age to start this training at 18. Young woman can get married and have babies at 18 today. (Even younger really.) They can choose to give their baby up for adoption at that age or younger. It would be a lovely world where we can protect everyone from bad decisions, but we can't. What we can do, what an organization like the Guild can do, is provide the support and training to make sure the girl knows what she's getting into and has the best chance of success.
Quote:Exactly true of Inara's job, isn't it? Oh - but Inara's out to make clients happy, not to make money. So why does she charge?
I think it is unethical to have so many sources of pain and conflict on your plate and disregard it for monetary gain.
Quote:I don't either, but I'm going with Bytemite's idea of "what if?" What if the Guild did have other projects? What would be their approach and motivation?
And I do not see the Guild as short-sighted, uncompassionate or "just a business". I don't see them institutionalizing this and I don't see their interest in this field.
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The Guild as a group that deals with human rights and exploitation in a number of different settings... By helping make it safe (hopefully) to practice potentially exploitive work.
I mean, my "what if" scenario was a narrow one... but an expanded version, operating as the guild's creed... Disturbing AND intriguing. Much like the whole idea of Companions.
It's always kind of weird to me how Companions are seen as empowered. The Guild has made things safe enough for them that they can feel self-confident, yes, and they can use sex and desire in positive ways... But in the end, aren't they being reduced to sex/desire objects by their profession?
We don't consider prostitutes in our world empowered, no matter how caring, protective, and respecting of their wishes that their pimps might be. What makes the Guild different? All I see is the current system we have, subtract out the hitting and unwillingness, and add in spiritual and psychological conditioning to convince the companions that they're doing something good that should make them feel good.
Ha. I just kind of go back and forth on this. The Guild: do I admire the near religious respect of sex and feminine power? Or do I think it's a justification and delusion?
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Quote:I hear you. All I can conclude is that it's all kinds of shades of grey, and will work for some but not for others.
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Ha. I just kind of go back and forth on this. The Guild: do I admire the near religious respect of sex and feminine power? Or do I think it's a justification and delusion?
I think the Guild knows this too, and tries very hard to preserve choice and personal freedom for everyone involved. That's it's saving grace to me.
Why am I still posting? Damn! Things to do!
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Inara is hurt by the client in the pilot episode. They have this nice sex and this nice talk and seem to be connected and intimate - emotionally I mean - but then he was that thing about rigging the clock. What an insult! So much for connection. Then the female client in War Stories - they have this nice talk about how we're connecting in a way men can't, and isn't this special, then (in a cut scene, but I find it important) Inara goes to the client's house to try and get help for Mal, the client doesn't even want to let Inara in.
You're ignoring here, as many people very often do, that Persephone is not the Core. It's not Inara's "natural habitat" and her clients are less familiar with Companions, more prone to old-fashioned judgment, even if they want to get with the Core fashions. The Councillor, also didn't really hurt Inara's feelings with regard to connecting. She was married and trying to keep her affair secret.
Even so, small slights from ignorant people are hardly comparable to the heartbreak potential of being a biological mother for hire with a built-in nanny contract.
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So there - I think the Guild is already pretty heartless in expecting young girls to commit to this kind of life. I don't see it as a much bigger step to let them be surrogate moms.
I see it as a huge step. If a young woman finds that Companion life is not for her, she can stop RIGHT then. Try that with your proposed scenario.
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Again, surrogate moms happen already, as well as adoptions. And this happens with woman who have no idea of the terrible grief of separation awaiting them. At least in my version of Nannying, they can be fully prepared for what's to come.
But then why not a counselling service for women thinking about surrogacy? Why this whole 12-year Nanny business attached?
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I think this much kinder than allowing it to continue to happen as it does today. The surrogate mother is given power, preparation, and support.
Except she's also expected to contract for over a decade. There is only so much you can prepare - especially at the young age you proposed - and you allow for very little flexibility after the event.
Besides. Just because the Guild would offer this service wouldn't make any other surrogacy or adoption service go away. It's like with Companions, a parallel option, not a replacement of a bad system. Unless the Guild is willing to enforce a monopoly all over the central planets, they do not prevent anyone's suffering, really.
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It's not like any girl off the street can walk in looking to make a buck. That situation would be exactly what the Guild is trying to avoid!
So why get young girls and train them up at all? Why not offer a councelling service about all these things instead of a rigid program? THAT would be more helpful.
Quote:Quote:I never said it was. It would be a small group who wanted to do this and a smaller group who were deemed emotionally and physically capable of it.
Which wouldn't really be The One Way for a young woman coming out of Companion school to make it in life.
And how would such a small number justify opening an entire second branch of Companion schooling?
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And how is this so very different from Inara's job? Sure as hell that's exploitive. It doesn't mean to be, and it tries to prevent Companions from being hurt, but it happens.
I don't consider Inara's job exploitative. She chooses it every day, could get out whenever she wants. She works with her body and mind, and it's - to me - no more exploitative than washing dishes in a restaurant, possibly less so because Inara receives ample compensation.
The key, for me, is in the length and flexibility of the committment. That's where the potential for grievous harm is.
Inara is obviously up to the small slights that she receives while travelling outside her usual cultural norm, and if she
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I'm not sure if I could make another proposition to amend this, since my last one has seemed to be so controversial, but I think the way I see it would be that this is an option for women who are more mature. 30s or 40s, and actively interested in having children. Who have enough experience and wisdom to govern whether they want to enter into a long term contract with any children related side-conditions. And who, hopefully, have contracted with the client in question for a number of years.
I actually imagine Companions as having to take classes on childhood psychology, because surely some of their clients might have children that they might interact with? What if the Companion were to join a family outing in the course of an assignation with a client? I think a client would be very displeased with a Companion that upset their children. And I imagine that a Companion who wants children might be offered some very useful pregnancy and childcare educational programs, courtesy of the Guild, should the Guild approve their request.
Going back to the daycare/orphanage idea I had, maybe trainee Companions spend at least some of their time in between classes helping with extra-curricular-but-still-guild-related activities, such as tending children, in addition to classes they might take on the subject?
And I'm back to the church comparisons again, but in a convent/abbey, the acolytes and novices, between their lessons, contribute a little bit to the day-to-day running of the facilities. Whether cooking, or cleaning, or maybe tending younger children when their caretakers are busy. It's often a good form of teaching patience and discipline.
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Quote:Inara has clearly known Ath for a long time.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
You're ignoring here, as many people very often do, that Persephone is not the Core.
I understand that Inara is out of her habitat, but the treatment from her clients is never presented as something unusual. She never makes any statement about how it's different in the Core. I think the writers have taken care to show that her clients sometimes show a degree of callousness toward her. It's the strange thing about her job, this combination of intimacy and distance.
Quote:This is why there would be a much longer and more demanding process of matching client with nanny. As I said, perhaps there's a full year of live-in as a test to see that they are compatible.
I see it as a huge step. If a young woman finds that Companion life is not for her, she can stop RIGHT then. Try that with your proposed scenario.
Quote:Because the Guild offers particular things that are available no where else.
But then why not a counselling service for women thinking about surrogacy? Why this whole 12-year Nanny business attached?
Of course the other surrogacy options would be available, just as the advent of Companions didn't make whores go away. That's yet another parallel between the two. The Guild does not prevent the suffering of whores who are taken advantage of, but they try to make better options available.
Quote:So - ample compensation makes it not exploitative?
I don't consider Inara's job exploitative. She chooses it every day, could get out whenever she wants. She works with her body and mind, and it's - to me - no more exploitative than washing dishes in a restaurant, possibly less so because Inara receives ample compensation.
Quote:And I think the length of commitment would be an expected part of it, something the nanny obviously knows about in advance. It is part of the draw. The young woman gets to be part of her child's life to whatever degree she puts in the contract.
The key, for me, is in the length and flexibility of the committment. That's where the potential for grievous harm is.
I do see that there is difficulty is having the client able to end the contract. That is part of the storytelling for me, what makes it a drama rather than a fairy tale. I don't think the Guild is perfect, and I don't think it always acts for the maximum possible benefit of its members. As I said, I like the drama of exploring its weaknesses. I know you disagree, but I think this weakness is comparable to the demands it puts on Companions, which is why I put it in there.
Now, if I were to put together a nanny business myself... no way in hell I would LOL! This isn't me, this is some AU version of the Guild we're talking about. It's imperfect. Flawed even.
By the way, I didn't put something in my original post because it was too long already, but I said that the child could be the result of sex (I don't like this option, won't get into it now) or test tube. I didn't say, but was thinking, it could be her baby or not. You've said that you see it as much much less damaging for surrogates than for a woman having her own DNA'd baby. I don't really see the difference. If I carry a baby to term, I'm interested in it, whether my DNA or not. I'd want to be a part of it's life.
Anyway, all these options would be open to the nanny to choose what she wants to do. If she has severe discomfort about having her own DNA involved, then she doesn't do it that way.
Quote:But it makes plenty of sense to you that a 12 year old decides that she's going to sell her body for a living? Yeah sure, the Companion can quit. After spending all her formative years training. The Nanny can quit too. It would be at least a few years before she contracts, and a responsible Guild would not allow her to do it until they beli
I honestly fail to see the demopgraphic of 18-year-olds who want to sell their reproductive system and their private lives for 12 years.
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Quote:Ew! No. As much as I'm mixing it up with AR about this nanny thing, my gut still rebels at any attempt to mix Companions and children. Companions are not there to play stepmom.
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I actually imagine Companions as having to take classes on childhood psychology, because surely some of their clients might have children that they might interact with?
As to trainees working with children - sorry, but ew! again. I don't see it happening. I still can't imagine the raising of orphans as something combined with the training of Companions. The two just do not mix.
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Aw. ._. *Goosesteps*
I think it'd be a fulfilling thing for trainees to be doing, taking care of little sisters or brothers in the guild in their free time.
I can imagine a tiny Nandi with a tinier Inara, chasing each other around, girl chatting... Back to the original topic of the thread, now that I think of it, if Inara ever got up to any kind of mischief, I bet Nandi would be the one goading her on.
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Quote:I guess we have a very different understanding of the Guild. I see it as pretty serious and quiet and... well, grown up. I don't see any little ones around at all, and I don't see child-raising as a skill that's needed or encouraged in Companions. They have plenty to do as it is!
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Aw. ._. *Goosesteps*
I think it'd be a fulfilling thing for trainees to be doing, taking care of little sisters or brothers in the guild in their free time.
But if I can twist a distant sector of the Guild into Nanny-dom, you certainly could twist it into little sister-dom. You just need to find a way to explain why we've never seen that aspect of it in the series.
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