Limits of State Power
POSTED BY: SergeantX
UPDATED: Sunday, December 14, 2025 21:53
VIEWED: 37205
PAGE 29 of 36
Thanks for bumping the thread to keep it up top while we wait on Finn and Geezer.
Can we count on you posting your stupid posts and at least get some value out of your presence ? Twice a day at about 12 hour intervals would be nice.
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Originally posted by rue:
Thanks for bumping the thread to keep it up top while we wait on Finn and Geezer.
I thought Signy was waiting on Sarge and Geezer. Was that a freudian slip?
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Can we count on you posting your stupid posts and at least get some value out of your presence ? Twice a day at about 12 hour intervals would be nice.
I'd take twice a day at twelve hour intervals over several times a day at half hour intervals any day of the week.
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You mean I can't be interested in their reply ? If that's true, then you should have NOTHING to post anything not directed TO YOU.
That'd be nice.
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Originally posted by JKiddo:
And what I was saying is tha loans based on ephermal values are a form of currency CREATION. Where did that money come from? By putting a five with a bunch of zeros behind it into to the seller's account. What is backing that amount? A $250,000 value and a promise to pay which fell through. Yes, the seller has nice new crisp bills... it was the loan itself which turned "nothing" into "real money", the reason why some mortgage institutions are flirting with insolvency, and also why Obama is printing money as fast as he can ... to backfill all of that created money with actual currency.
No, no currency was ever created at any point. The currency you spent came from the bank, it wasn't created out of thin air. If the bank was leveraged it was the money that belonged to investors and savers, but it always existed. The money didn't just materialise when you walked through the door. The loan didn't turn "nothing" into money. It didn't invent money. If you're hungry, and I have two eggs, and I agree to give you an egg now so you can have an omelette tonight, with the understanding you'll replace it tomorrow when you've been to the store, I haven't created an egg through magic. The act of handing an Egg that I have in my possession to you, it hasn't been created from "nothing". If you then go to the store the next day and they have no eggs, that means I don't get my eggs back, but it doesn't that the fact the store doesn't have any, has made any eggs vanish into the ether.
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I don't think we'll ever agree on this, but I think the facts (deflation in the past 6-9 months) suports my POV.
Unless I'm completely misunderstanding what you're POV is, the fact of deflation doesn't support what you've been saying. It doesn't support your point of view, so it's a mute point here. The fact that the entire economic system hasn't collapsed in entirety, that we're all not multibillionaires holding currency that's worthless than the paper it's printed on disproves your POV. If money was just magicked into existence when someone took out a lone, money would have no intrinsic value.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
You mean I can't be interested in their reply ?
You'll keep the crows away with that statement for sure.
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
If that's true, then you should have NOTHING to post anything not directed TO YOU.
That'd be nice.
You lost me there Rue, care to re-phrase?
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"currency was (n)ever created at any point"
Currency wasn't created - it takes a mint or a printing press to do that ! 
- but (currency denominated) wealth was.
If my house goes from 100,000 to 500,000 (for illustration purposes only !) and someone goes to the bank and gets a loan to buy it - where does that 500,000 come from ? Remember, banks aren't required to have all the value of the loans that they write on-hand, or to even show that they are guaranteed that money in the future.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Meanwhile, neither Geezer nor Sarge have devised a viable alternative to the cluster-f*ck which is our very own privately-run health care system.
Geezer and Sarge actually have lives that prevent them from instant response to your every question. Geezer, for example, has been doing yardwork and reconnecting the stereo/DVD/TV after a remodel. Wait for it.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Heh... and Sarge has been traveling all day.
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Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm a little tired of people handwaving with generalized, ideology-based concpets which have little basis in fact. So be specific. Look at where the rubber meets the road. Enlighten us.
Repeal all legislation that prohibits people from providing health care to others who want it. Period.
But since that's not going to happen, about the only other option is to nationalize it. Which will lead to the situation I'm concerned about - strong incentives for intrusive government and a national ethos that is largely apathetic toward, and/or ignorant of, the concept of constitutionally limited government.
SergeantX
"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
If you can figure out how to achieve your seemingly-contradictory goals, please let us know how. You're arguing AGAINST government oversight, yet also AGAINST corporatism. How do you curb corporatism without oversight? In other words, if you remove all government oversight (which seems to be the goal, going by everything you've posted), won't the corporations run wild and roughshod over us?]
No. The thing is, the oversight and the corporatism are two sides of the same coin. That's the point I've been making all along. If you look closely at how large interest groups ("corporations" in the sense of corporatism) express their power, it's through their manipulation of the political. They use it to curb competition and consolidate, and they use it to enhance their own position at the expense of other groups. That's really what modern politics boil down to - large, focused groups manipulating government for advantage.
It's possible to use government in way that applies sane, reasonable rules to all players evenly, in ways that aren't designed to favor some over others. But we've blown by that long ago. Until we get control over government, expanding it more is merely feeding the monster - and building more corporatist power.
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On another note, how do you feel about Tort Reform? Are you in favor of that kind of government oversight (limiting punitive and actual damage payment caps by government mandate), or do you prefer to let juries decide what is fair compensation for corporations gone wild?
I'm not really sure on that one. The problem seems to be the presumption that insurance will cover the excessive awards. Juries see themselves consoling a victim, but not destroying the life of someone who's made a mistake. Honestly, a nationwide moratorium on insurance is appealing, though not likely practical. It does seem that insurance creates all kinds of screwed up moral hazard.
SergeantX
"It's cold and it's a broken hallelujah"
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