450 posts IS a worse crime than wanting to kill us .
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Friday, May 22, 2009 14:59
VIEWED: 29463
PAGE 19 of 46
"But discussing torture when there isn't torture..... what are we talking about again ?"
Hello,
I think there would have been more intense scrutiny of the event years ago when it happened, had we had the full details of the event at that time.
The fullness of time has been needed to reveal the fullness of actions taken, and so it is now, in the fullness of time, that this is being discussed.
Even now, Cheney is encouraging the declassification of additional torture documents, which will help broaden knowledge for this critical discussion.
This is the very hour, Auraptor. This is the time when it is best discussed, because this is the time when we can best discuss it, facts of the issue exposed.
And by discussing it now, we can set policy forever more.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
So what are you saying here, that we saved the Human race because of waterboarding...?
No...I'm saying we chose waterboarding over extinguishing the Arab race in nuclear fire. A choice they would not have made given the means and opportunity.
We know that if the terrorists had the means they would destroy us, all of us, not just the military and the government, but every man, woman, and child. We have the means and choose not to destroy them...we are better then them.
We know that given the means they would use torture...not just to extract information that would be used to take more lives...but to inflict pain and suffering on the victim. They would not stop with waterboarding and sleep deprivation but would use anything and everything at their disposal without regard for sentiment or morality. We use it in limited and strictly controlled circumstances to gain information to save lives....again, because we are better then them.
I'm not saying torture everybody that comes through the door. But the tool should be in the box and they need to know its there...and like any tool it has its proper use by skilled craftmen doing a specific job.
H
"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
So what are you saying here, that we saved the Human race because of waterboarding...?
No...I'm saying we chose waterboarding over extinguishing the Arab race in nuclear fire. A choice they would not have made given the means and opportunity.
You know that for a fact, do ya? The "Arab race" aleady has nuclear weapons. Pakistan has them. Last time I checked, we were calling them an "ally" of ours. Odd that they haven't tried to extinguish "the American race" in a hell of nuclear fire, as you insist they would if they could.
Quote:
We know that if the terrorists had the means they would destroy us, all of us, not just the military and the government, but every man, woman, and child. We have the means and choose not to destroy them...we are better then them.
We know that given the means they would use torture...not just to extract information that would be used to take more lives...but to inflict pain and suffering on the victim. They would not stop with waterboarding and sleep deprivation but would use anything and everything at their disposal without regard for sentiment or morality. We use it in limited and strictly controlled circumstances to gain information to save lives....again, because we are better then them.
I'm not saying torture everybody that comes through the door. But the tool should be in the box and they need to know its there...and like any tool it has its proper use by skilled craftmen doing a specific job.
And now you've lowered the bar even more. Where once America sought to be the Light of the World, the shining mansion on the hill, the beacon of hope in a world of darkness... Now you're hoping that "we're better than most terrorists" is a catchy new motto. "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to be free... and we most likely won't cut their heads off or drown them. Maybe a little light drowning."
Wow, you make America suck. You should be ashamed, and if you had any real decency, you'd commit ritual suicide for the dishonor you've brought to your country in its time of need.
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
So what are you saying here, that we saved the Human race because of waterboarding...?
No...I'm saying we chose waterboarding over extinguishing the Arab race in nuclear fire. A choice they would not have made given the means and opportunity.
We know that if the terrorists had the means they would destroy us, all of us, not just the military and the government, but every man, woman, and child. We have the means and choose not to destroy them...we are better then them.
We know that given the means they would use torture...not just to extract information that would be used to take more lives...but to inflict pain and suffering on the victim. They would not stop with waterboarding and sleep deprivation but would use anything and everything at their disposal without regard for sentiment or morality. We use it in limited and strictly controlled circumstances to gain information to save lives....again, because we are better then them.
I'm not saying torture everybody that comes through the door. But the tool should be in the box and they need to know its there...and like any tool it has its proper use by skilled craftmen doing a specific job.
H
"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.
Unless you're willing to claim that every single man woman and child on this planet, regardless of nationality, regardless of their actual, professed political or religious beliefs, regardless or whether they actually are terrorists or support terorists.. would destroy a vast portion of this planet for the purpose of extinguishing the U.S. with nuclear weapons if they could, regardless of whether they actually already could.... ONLY because they happen to be of Arab descent... you're talking yourself into one hell of a corner here.
You've created one hell of a demonic picture in your head, one hell of an US vs. THEM schisma, and you live in a very hopeless world because of it, because it will never allow you to believe in a positive solution.
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Quote:All I can do is agree if y'all are gonna express my opinions for me here.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
You've created one hell of a demonic picture in your head, one hell of an US vs. THEM schisma, and you live in a very hopeless world because of it, because it will never allow you to believe in a positive solution.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:All I can do is agree if y'all are gonna express my opinions for me here.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
You've created one hell of a demonic picture in your head, one hell of an US vs. THEM schisma, and you live in a very hopeless world because of it, because it will never allow you to believe in a positive solution.
The laughing Chrisisall
I just find it seriously upsetting.
Usually these threads are an intellectual exercise for me, but seeing this sort of absolute language with regard to other people... My grandmother grew up hearing this sort of dehumanising rethoric on the radio and reading it in the paper, and we all know what people who think in these terms are capable of doing or supporting.
How can he use the words "Arab race" and not stop short and just shake himself out of what he's cooking up in his head? How blurry is his picture that he lumps it all together, vast populations of wholy individual people, and put it in a pot labled "evil" and then pat himself on the back because no one performed genocide on them?
At some point it stops being funny, or sloppy language. It starts getting scary. Because he's an articulate, educated person, who obviously has decent values in life, otherwise. He's not some bald-shaved freak in a struggling small-town who waves a Nazi flag because he has no options in life.
Even with his views on torture, he should know better than to mess up his language like that, and his view of human beings.
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Quote:Indoctrination.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
How can he use the words "Arab race" and not stop short and just shake himself out of what he's cooking up in his head? How blurry is his picture that he lumps it all together, vast populations of wholy individual people, and put it in a pot labled "evil" and then pat himself on the back because no one performed genocide on them?
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
You've created one hell of a demonic picture in your head, one hell of an US vs. THEM schisma, and you live in a very hopeless world because of it, because it will never allow you to believe in a positive solution.
It's not an US vs. THEM world he's created, it's U.S. vs. THEM. That doesn't make it bad - it makes it PATRIOTIC!
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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Way back when there was a series of threads about demonization and how that makes it possible to dehumanize, torture, kill, or genocide people. It seems like this website has collectively taken a step back from then. Some people are not able to acknowledge their fears openly, and have hardened their positions to vigorously defend actions which they wouldn't have defended previous, or at least might have thought about more.
---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.
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You're right, Signy - and for proof, you need look no further than those who now rabidly DEFEND the U.S. government torturing people WHILE CLAIMING THAT TO DO OTHERWISE WOULD BE UN-AMERICAN! How fucked up does your morality have to be in order to see torture as a good, moral American value that must be upheld?
And then for these fuckers to stand there and try to defend it by degrees - "Well, if we torture, surely THEY torture worse, so we're still better than them" - it's just disgraceful. It's like saying it's okay to molest kids, as long as they're over the age of 12. It's a bullshit justification of reprehensible, unacceptable behavior.
If that's the America these bastards want to live in, they fucking well deserve it. All of it. Every single thing that happens to them, whether it be at the hands of the terrorists, or those they think are supposed to protect them from the terrorists, because it's impossible to tell the difference anymore.
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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