Firefly Timeline
POSTED BY: Almanac
UPDATED: Sunday, April 16, 2017 22:12
VIEWED: 18843
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Originally posted by Almanac:Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Serenity bluray has an Alliance database.
I'd seen that advertised, but wasn't quite sure what it would entail...Quote:
List Mal's dob as 20 Sep 2468 (apparently a joke regarding soembody in the props dept born 20 Sep 1968)
Does it say that in the database itself?
it said the dob, the joke info was what I'd read elsewhere, numerous sources.
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- is Mal really 49 in the show?
I don't think so...but then, the movie shows that as the age for "Malcom" Reynolds, whoever he is.
I would tend to discount Mal being 49. If Nathan, a few years younger than Gina, is playing 49, then Book must be about 100 played by Ron. (120 years is median life expectancy in Joss' verse).
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Also Zoe dob 15 Feb 2484,
So far so good.Quote:
Inara 14 Oct 2489,
I wonder why the makers of the database would want her to be that age...Quote:
Kaylee 2 Jul 2497 location Kowlonshi,
Matches my timeline again.
"Kowlonshi" is new to me.Quote:
Simon Nov 2490,
Another match.I'm starting to like this...
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and River at the academy 2515-2517.
Sounds good to me.Quote:
Maybe Kowlonshi and Kowlon Fed Base are different ways of saying the same place.
Where is "Kowlon Fed Base" from...?
Unfortunately, I don't currently own a Blu-Ray player.
However, if someone with Blu-Ray access who was reading this thread happened to take screencaps of the Alliance Database and emailed them to me for reference purposes (at the email address listed on the Firefly Timeline), I'd be forever grateful...
Edgar Governo
Historian of Things That Never Were
I did not have a bluray player, until a few hours after I bought bluray Serenity and then bluray Firefly.
I thought Kowlon Fed Base was where, in Safe, they were to drop off Badger's money from the cattle proceeds - from Jiangyin. Do I recall wrong?
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If I understand correctly, the method of validity you use will vary from what I used.
I tried to use a model similar to that of Intelligence networks. Intelligence gathering uses a form of validity scale with 2 parts, at least. One part rates the validity of the source - is that source normally correct, the events revealed do come to pass or are proven to have happened, and is that source in a position to have access to the data. The other part rates the information itself - is it corroberated with other sources, for instance?
In this verse, I also tried to include situational evaluation as well.
For instance, are all our characters of equal validity regarding lines spoken? Are any devious? deceptive? dishonest? hiding? accurate? correct? precise?
I had considered that, when the creator of the Verse specified in script (BDM and Pilot) that River was a specific age, then this was gospel as far as could be determined, absent directly conflicting data - it is not likely this data will ever be shown on screen (with River-in-the-box a subscript appears onscreen stating "River Tam is 17 in this scene" - won't happen.) This apparently would not rate highly on your scale since it does not appear on screen.
On the other hand, lines spoken by characters could be accurate or precise, or vague, and deceptive or forthright, and situationally biased.
For example, consider 3 references from Inara.
In The Train Job, she tells Book she has been aboard 8 months.
In Bushwhacked, she tells Commander Harkin she has been aboard "a few weeks" short of a year.
In Objects in Space, she tells Jubal she has been aboard "a year."
Are all of these lines correct? complete and honest? absolutely precise? without guile? If so, then this tells us that the time from TTJ to BW spans 3 1/2 months, and then the time from BW to OiS spans "a few weeks" - including Shindig, Safe, OMR, Jaynestown, Ariel, WS, (and using the DVD set sequence) Trash, Message, HoG. Is this reasonable?
If that is not reasonable, then does the overview of these 3 lines mean all 3 are invalid? or is one or another less valid than the others?
In TTJ, she is in a casual conversation with Book. Is this an adversarial exchange? doesn't seem so. Is she being deceptive? Not that I can tell. Is she hiding something? perhaps, can't tell.
In Bushwhacked, is she in an adversarial exchange with Commander Harken? Fair to say everybody in their "interview" with Harken is in an adversarial exchange. Does she have something to hide? perhaps. Is she being deceptive? maybe. Is she being forthright and fully honest? not sure.
In OiS, is she in an adversarial exchange with Jubal? Fair to say. Is she being deceptive or dishonest? perhaps, but I think Jubal said that he read her as being truthful, so maybe she is fully forthright despite having no reason to be.
Of these 3, perhaps she her lines are least varnished with Book, and most varnished with Harkin.
Now consider the precision of her lines. Does "8 months" mean 8 months and zero days? Could she mean 7 months and 27 days and still say "8 months" or perhaps 8 months and 3 weeks? I would consider these to be a reasonable "range" of accuracy and precision.
Even if she were fully honest with Harkin, does "a few weeks" short of a year mean exactly 50 weeks? Might she, at her most courteous, have deflected part of his error by diminishing her reply - like if it was really 4 weeks short of a year? If she was essentially agreeing with him, but being deceptive, what was it she was deceptive about, and why is it show in records as inaccurate?
With Jubal, even if she was honest as Jubal thought, does "a year" mean exactly 365 days? Could it have reasonably meant 51 weeks? 60 weeks? 13 months? 14, 15, or 16 months? To say you have done something for "a year" could be verbal shorthand for "at least a year" and could continue to be that shorthand up until, perhaps "a year and a half" or "almost 2 years" wihtou specifying the exact number of days and/or months.
When I evaluated these 3 lines, I con
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
One question I would ask is how do you figure Simon would say he and River have been aboard for 2 months in Safe, if the Pilot was in May and Safe was in October?
Easy...he only says that in the script.
It's becoming clear in this thread that there are some fundamental differences in our methodology, including the different weight we give to script-only information and our differing interpretations of "authorial intent."
Since Simon doesn't use the two-month figure in the aired episode, it's easier for me to dismiss that figure--possibly as a leftover artifact of the shift in the schedule for "Safe," which was rewritten to fit in the Young Simon and River flashback.
I'll add a note to the timeline explaining this, though.
Edgar Governo
Historian of Things That Never Were
http://www.mts.net/~arphaxad/history.html
Visit the Browncoat Saloon:
http://www.myspace.com/browncoatsaloon
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I must admit to an unfair advantage of perspective over you. I had the luxury of seeing the whole picture, the full canvas, instead of scrounging for scraps of data piecemeal like you had to. This gives me the proverbial "fresh look" or "new eyes" which I know drastically changes the view.
This is true enough...
I originally uploaded the Firefly Timeline before there was even a DVD set, so I was trying to get information anywhere I could--which is why you'll see (for example) a number of quotes by Joss Whedon and Tim Minear from Fox's original website for Firefly--but nowadays, with much more official, licenced material to draw from (especially actual stories in the 'verse), I would be reluctant to incorporate something from an interview (or even, say, a prop which doesn't appear clearly onscreen) before turning to a more authoritative source instead.
Having said that, I'm not sure my conclusions would be all that different from what I have, even with a later perspective, for the reasons I'll try to go into now (and already have, to a certain extent).
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I read that earlier thread you linked to, but not much of your analysis of central time references was there - must be on another board I haven't seen.
A lot of that analysis is in the annotations within the timeline itself, although the back-and-forth of discussion with other Browncoats is spread across multiple boards.
Unfortunately, a lot of that initial talk was on the Universal Board.
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If I wasn't clear about how I went to work on the conflicts, I tried to find how many of the references DID or COULD agree with each other, and tried to see if there were only a few that REALLY conflicted with almost everything else. If several different groups of agreed references were in conflict with one assumption, then I draped suspicion upon the MOST conflicting reference or assumption.
Well, I think most timeliners use this sort of historiographic method to iron out conflicts in whatever canon(s) they're working with...but then, that is how I arrived at my dates, which seem (to me) to provide the most agreement and the fewest conflicts in references (especially onscreen).
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I know many have discounted the Mal line in BDM about 8 months. If that were the sole reference, I would be less assured it was valid. But BDM script also has Operative saying it was 8 months ago that River escaped the Institute. This is several weeks before Lilac (Mr Universe said several weeks of subliminal Oaty Bar broadwaves), and the escape on Osiris was prior to the Pilot on Persephone - perhaps a few days or a week between escape and Pilot. Also, Pilot script says River-in-the-box is 17, and BDM script says River in BDM is 17 except for the escape scene, where she is 16. Because these 2 scripts are written by Joss, I felt they conveyed what he thought and intended, before time and budget constraints caused him to trim lines from filming. This means that all alone, here are 3 references agreeing with each other, but disagreeing with the "more than 1 year between Pilot and BDM" scenario.
To me, though, the idea in the film's script that River is 16 when she escapes, but 17 in the movie, reinforces the thought of Serenity as a "Season 2" story in which River is a year older than she was in the pilot, which I also assume takes place soon after the escape (but not in such a way that River turns 17 while in cryo).
In much the same way that the story of the escape itself has changed (what's shown in the movie isn't very similar to what Simon describes in the pilot, though the novelisation by Keith R.A. DeCandido endeavours to iron this out), the timeline of River's age has changed--at least to the extent that Joss Whedon really thinks about these things.
Looking at the other thread you posted, it also feels like some of the explanations are a stretch:
-Inara in "The Train Job?" Well, time flies when you're hav
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Quote:
Originally posted by Almanac:Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
One question I would ask is how do you figure Simon would say he and River have been aboard for 2 months in Safe, if the Pilot was in May and Safe was in October?
Easy...he only says that in the script.
Edgar Governo
Historian of Things That Never Were
http://www.mts.net/~arphaxad/history.html
Ooooh. Thanks. I had thought I remembered that from the show. I'm gonna review that. If not aired, I agree with your point.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Almanac:Quote:
I know many have discounted the Mal line in BDM about 8 months. If that were the sole reference, I would be less assured it was valid. But BDM script also has Operative saying it was 8 months ago that River escaped the Institute. This is several weeks before Lilac (Mr Universe said several weeks of subliminal Oaty Bar broadwaves), and the escape on Osiris was prior to the Pilot on Persephone - perhaps a few days or a week between escape and Pilot. Also, Pilot script says River-in-the-box is 17, and BDM script says River in BDM is 17 except for the escape scene, where she is 16. Because these 2 scripts are written by Joss, I felt they conveyed what he thought and intended, before time and budget constraints caused him to trim lines from filming. This means that all alone, here are 3 references agreeing with each other, but disagreeing with the "more than 1 year between Pilot and BDM" scenario.
To me, though, the idea in the film's script that River is 16 when she escapes, but 17 in the movie, reinforces the thought of Serenity as a "Season 2" story in which River is a year older than she was in the pilot, which I also assume takes place soon after the escape (but not in such a way that River turns 17 while in cryo).
In much the same way that the story of the escape itself has changed (what's shown in the movie isn't very similar to what Simon describes in the pilot, though the novelisation by Keith R.A. DeCandido endeavours to iron this out), the timeline of River's age has changed--at least to the extent that Joss Whedon really thinks about these things.
Looking at the other thread you posted, it also feels like some of the explanations are a stretch:
-Inara in "The Train Job?" Well, time flies when you're having fun, so she doesn't really mean eight months.
-Inara in "Bushwhacked?" Well, Harken is just wrong, and she's humouring him.
-Mal in "Trash?" Well, even a brief marriage feels like a drag, so he really means a shorter span of time.
That already seems like a lot of rationalisation just to make "eight months" true, and all three of those rely on assumptions you have to make about the characters which aren't depicted onscreen. By contrast, Mal confuses weeks for months at the beginning of Serenity, so there's a clear precedent for discounting another time reference by the same character within the same story.
Can you specify? I don't recall or understand this weeks/months issue? Is this Pilot or BDM?
If I understand, you are taking Mal's "half year" as precisely 183 days +/- a few days, without corroberation, but his "8 months" is discounted (meaning 13-15 months), although corroberated in script by The Operative?
I'm wondering your thoughts about what's betwixt Kaylee's nethers about a year before Lilac, after Simon has boarded?
Haven't gotten Batter Days - how much time does it span?
Regarding the Stretches you mentioned, I think during the early discussion I suggested these were potential points of inaccuracy. I think I conjured that Inara was aboard between 8 months and 9 months in TTJ, which would have casual conversational shorthand as "8 months" - and that seemed to fit with all the other data available.
I am afraid that, as you interpreted, the posts in the discussion might seem confusing, and I have several times been tempted to go back and update or correct issues which have been subsequently ironed out - but I conjured that would be dishonest and improperly make it seem like the discussion did not progress. So I do not plan to go back and edit them for clarity, sorry if there is confusion.
Are you considering the 3 Inara lines as accurate and precise?
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I know many have discounted the Mal line in BDM about 8 months. If that were the sole reference, I would be less assured it was valid. But BDM script also has Operative saying it was 8 months ago that River escaped the Institute. This is several weeks before Lilac (Mr Universe said several weeks of subliminal Oaty Bar broadwaves), and the escape on Osiris was prior to the Pilot on Persephone - perhaps a few days or a week between escape and Pilot. Also, Pilot script says River-in-the-box is 17, and BDM script says River in BDM is 17 except for the escape scene, where she is 16. Because these 2 scripts are written by Joss, I felt they conveyed what he thought and intended, before time and budget constraints caused him to trim lines from filming. This means that all alone, here are 3 references agreeing with each other, but disagreeing with the "more than 1 year between Pilot and BDM" scenario.
It's rare, but I find your logic, and methodology, totally compelling this time. :) Especially I feel you're on the right track with your methodology. We've gone over the timeline many times, and encountered several bits of conflicting info. The only reasonably, sound thing to do then, IMHO, is what you're doing here: weigh the importance of each piece, and balance the things that add up against those that don't.
And in light of the above, I feel a comment like Kaylee's "Going on a year now" to have less weight than the other things you mention. I mean, ask folks when the BDM was shown on the silver screen, and you'll find people answer something like: "4 years ago." My point being, when answering such questions, hardly anyone does the exact math (people just quickly subtract the number of the year of the event from the current one, and are done with it; or just do approximations, like almost a year, like 8 months, becomes a year).
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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Well, I did check Safe again, and the 2 months wasn't there - whoops. Also, the Kowlon Fed Base line was not there either, and since it was not filmed, you likely aren't interested in it, so no need to go look for it - sorry for the detour.
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Originally posted by asarian:Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I know many have discounted the Mal line in BDM about 8 months. If that were the sole reference, I would be less assured it was valid. But BDM script also has Operative saying it was 8 months ago that River escaped the Institute. This is several weeks before Lilac (Mr Universe said several weeks of subliminal Oaty Bar broadwaves), and the escape on Osiris was prior to the Pilot on Persephone - perhaps a few days or a week between escape and Pilot. Also, Pilot script says River-in-the-box is 17, and BDM script says River in BDM is 17 except for the escape scene, where she is 16. Because these 2 scripts are written by Joss, I felt they conveyed what he thought and intended, before time and budget constraints caused him to trim lines from filming. This means that all alone, here are 3 references agreeing with each other, but disagreeing with the "more than 1 year between Pilot and BDM" scenario.
It's rare, but I find your logic, and methodology, totally compelling this time. :) Especially I feel you're on the right track with your methodology. We've gone over the timeline many times, and encountered several bits of conflicting info. The only reasonably, sound thing to do then, IMHO, is what you're doing here: weigh the importance of each piece, and balance the things that add up against those that don't.
This was really addressed in the other thread where discussion led up to the timelines posted by me. Here I was just re-explaining it for Edgar, who might not have seen the progression of the discussion in that thread. You might re-read that thread to see if it makes more sense now, or if you think I was off track in those conclusions or timelines. Otherwise I'd rather not threadjack here and knock Edgar off his course, I was just providing alternate ways for him to look at things. I'd be happy to explore your critique of mine in those threads, but we can focus this thread on helping Edgar accomplish what he wants.
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And in light of the above, I feel a comment like Kaylee's "Going on a year now" to have less weight than the other things you mention. I mean, ask folks when the BDM was shown on the silver screen, and you'll find people answer something like: "4 years ago." My point being, when answering such questions, hardly anyone does the exact math (people just quickly subtract the number of the year of the event from the current one, and are done with it; or just do approximations, like almost a year, like 8 months, becomes a year).
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
I fully agree with the generalization and conversational abbreviations and approximations, and apply it to the lines in the shows. I get the impression Edgar is more exacting.
I did not consider Kaylee's comment to be hard evidence, but found it curious that no other encounter was mentioned during the show - I would have expected some mention of this Kaylee fling while Simon was aboard - not to mention that Jayne seems unaware of Kaylee's fling (could stand to hear a little more). Similar to the lack of mention in Ariel regarding Inara's previous year's exam - was she not aboard yet, were they too shy to inquire about it, or just why all the curiosity this time around?
For the "8 months" I consider it more exact than "half year back" instead of "6 months back" - Mal has a schedule, and he likely knows how long it's been since he's had to hide from work-rich environs because of his Tam cargo - he might also be keeping track of how much cashy money he's missed out on for this inconvenience. I expect it was not 10 months Mal was talking about. I also think The Operaqtive was not referring to 9 or 10 months when he said (in script) "8 months."
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
You say you ordered them by production sequence once that became known. And then the DVDs came out, rearranging the sequence of episodes - that must have been some work to rearrange the timeline for those last 4 episodes as well.
It wasn't too much work, because there were really only two episodes rearranged by the DVD sequence, "Heart of Gold" and "Objects in Space."
Going by production order, they would fall between "War Stories" and "Trash," but the latter episode and "The Message" would stay in the same place on my timeline. The main effect of that was to create a gap between "War Stories" and "Trash" with no episodes occurring therein, and to shift some of the antecedent action referred to in other episodes into that gap.
To be frank, I feel like the series makes more sense (chronological and otherwise) in the original production order (e.g. with Jayne fully realising that River is psychic in "Objects in Space" and then operating from that knowledge in "Trash" and "The Message"), but I had to go with Joss Whedon's ordering, especially given the Inara-leaving arc which resulted from that.
Edgar Governo
Historian of Things That Never Were
http://www.mts.net/~arphaxad/history.html
Visit the Browncoat Saloon:
http://www.myspace.com/browncoatsaloon
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I had conjured that the timeline references would have shifted things about.
In Trash, Inara says no work for her in 3 weeks, shifting time from WS, HoG, OiS spanning 3 weeks to WS & Trash seperated by 3 weeks of no ep.
In OiS, Inara says to Jubal she's been aboard a year. With OiS following WS & HoG, this meshes better with TTJ's "8 months" line to Book. With WS, plus 3 weeks and Trash and Message and HoG, it's harder to mesh the extra month into the span between TTJ and OiS, I would think.
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