Rewriting Shindig

POSTED BY: DMI
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 12:25
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ASARIAN

Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Chances are, Banning already knows what it feels like to be on the receiving end. You have to learn that stuff somewhere. The only lesson this will teach her is to be slightly less visible about where she lashes out and to despise Murphy. But what he does is really only one more spin in a circle of disrespect. He's not teaching her anything but to do exactly as she has been doing: use humiliation to solve a problem.

He's not much better than her in that regard, only he'd decided that Kaylee gets to receive his protection. He's nice to guests, so what. Anyone he has decided is useless is still fair game.

You seem to be taking a rather compassionate stance towards Banning in this thread. :) Now, I'd like to think I'm usually pretty attuned to women undergoing any form of abuse, but in Banning's case, I honestly don't see her having suffered from any (in her life, I mean). Rather, way I figure this, Banning is the epitome of a decadent society, filled with folks too rich to be doing anything useful, and too bored as a result of it. The dynamic of Dangerous Liaisons leaps to mind. Banning, bored stiff, is just being mean to Kaylee, pretty much because she's a welcome diversion, really. Banning doesn't need new friends: she's got plenty of those. What she does need, however, is an escape from the unbearable lightness of her daily life. And she does it typical Freudian Überdeckung-style: she seeks to re-affirm the value of the emptiness of her spoiled-rotten existence by putting down Kaylee.

Now, Murphy could have been nicer, for certain. But what he does, really, is basically rubbing Mal's words in her face: "The lie of it." (Not that he heard Mal say so, per se, but his acting out is for our benefit: if Ath didn't give it away, we need to understand that Inara's high society comes crumbling down when you scrape off that thin layer of veneer).

Now, I admit, Banning's daddy having told Murphy that it takes but the space of a schoolboy's wink to get her out of her clothes is a bit creepy, really, One can only imagine what kind of twisted society these rich folks live in. So, while I don't see Banning having undergone any 'classical' forms of abuse, one could, of course, argue that growing up in such a world is perhaps the greatest form of abuse of them all. But, if so, then not one the Banning girl suffered from exclusively, but rather their society at large.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

ASARIAN

Wednesday, February 11, 2009 11:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

And the "independent" comment was a word play. Independent as in "not Guild-affiliated", not as in the political position, but Mal alludes to the similarity of attitudes. The not paying thing, though, I would very very much class under Mal wanting to do Inara a favor, which becomes plain when she dismisses his offer. His reaction to that is pretty tell-tale, especially since he repeats her words later in front of Nandi to express his irritation. I think he would have helped Guild-affiliated Companions out for free, as well, if it was because Inara asked him and they somehow couldn't afford to pay.

I agree that the "Independent" comment was just word play: Mal is not so daft as to equate these working girls with those who fought on the losing side of the war (still not convinced it was the wrong one).

I say it's still a bit of a double whammy, though. Mal wants to do Inara a favor, yes; but, at the same time, it's also a dig at her profession, in that by supporting whores he shoves it in Inara's face, once more, that he basically respects whores more than he does the whole Companion business. I reckon because whores, in Mal's eyes, don't live "The lie of it." Mal respects that. Also, whores are 'little people', again, in Mal's eyes, so I say he naturally feels he's on the same boat with them, as it were.

As to why Inara rejected his offer (which was clearly painful for Mal), I dunno. Professional pride, I think, certainly played into it: she simply doesn't want him to think he's doing a Companion a favor by helping out whores. Could also be she picked up on Mal's not-so-covert dig at her profession.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:

I say it's still a bit of a double whammy, though. Mal wants to do Inara a favor, yes; but, at the same time, it's also a dig at her profession, in that by supporting whores he shoves it in Inara's face, once more, that he basically respects whores more than he does the whole Companion business. I reckon because whores, in Mal's eyes, don't live "The lie of it." Mal respects that. Also, whores are 'little people', again, in Mal's eyes, so I say he naturally feels he's on the same boat with them, as it were.

There was a tiny bit of a dig in there, yes, but not as overt or strong as the language you use implies, simply because of Mal's reaction to Inara's rejection of his offer. If he had been in anything resembling a playfully antagosistic mood about their ongoing differences, her rejection wouldn't have hit him the way it does, because he'd be able to connect it to a reaction to his own words.

I really think, for once, Mal wasn't being preachy about Inara's profession.

Quote:

As to why Inara rejected his offer (which was clearly painful for Mal), I dunno. Professional pride, I think, certainly played into it: she simply doesn't want him to think he's doing a Companion a favor by helping out whores. Could also be she picked up on Mal's not-so-covert dig at her profession.

Actually, and I think this is very obviously alluded to later in the episode, Inara is fighting the growing ties between them. He wants to do something life threatening, something heroic for her (flash back to Shindig, too) and it's just a bit too fraught with implications for Inara, who has reasons to doubt how well the two of them would actually do together.

That's why it hurts Mal. He wants to do INARA a favor (a big one) and she says no. I don't want favors from you. Don't get your hopes up. That's what really hurts. They both understand each other perfectly in that scene, and it's a pretty blatant moment there.

Oh Mal, you silly thing. If only your brain could connect the insults to her doubts about you. You just wanna pet him, right?

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
You seem to be taking a rather compassionate stance towards Banning in this thread. :)

I am. :) I think people spend too much time conflating her behavior with her wealth, when it could easily have been a party on some backwater dirt ball, with the queen bee there trying to put down Kaylee. Calling her a spoiled rich girl is SUCH a lazy response.

Quote:

Now, I'd like to think I'm usually pretty attuned to women undergoing any form of abuse, but in Banning's case, I honestly don't see her having suffered from any (in her life, I mean).

I wasn't talking about physical abuse.

I was talking about emotional neglect, something that can happen at any social sphere.

Quote:
Rather, way I figure this, Banning is the epitome of a decadent society, filled with folks too rich to be doing anything useful, and too bored as a result of it.

Then why isn't the old guy useless? Why are not ALL the old guys useless?

It'skind of silly to pretend that they are all useless and unethical just because they are rich. We see one group of girls who could have sprung from any highschool, any playground. That has nothing to do with money and everything with being young and insecure.

Quote:
The dynamic of Dangerous Liaisons leaps to mind.

And even in that book/movie, not everyone who is rich (which is everyone) is evil and useless. Only the two protagonists. That's not a social commentary but a look at two people who react to their life in this particular way.

Quote:
What she does need, however, is an escape from the unbearable lightness of her daily life. And she does it typical Freudian Überdeckung-style: she seeks to re-affirm the value of the emptiness of her spoiled-rotten existence by putting down Kaylee.

I agree about trying to affirm the value of her life, but not because of an unbearable lightness brought on by wealth but an emotional emptiness brought on by one or two sucky parents.

Quote:

Now, Murphy could have been nicer, for certain. But what he does, really, is basically rubbing Mal's words in her face: "The lie of it."

And we know absolutely nothing about Murphy that suggests he is living a meaningful life, so he seems like quite a hypocrite. Plus, he was not rubbing in anything about the meaning of her life, he was rubbing in something to do with her private sexual behavior, basically humiliating her about something that has little to do with her wealthy lifestyle. Inconsistent.

Quote:
(Not that he heard Mal say so, per se, but his acting out is for our benefit: if Ath didn't give it away, we need to understand that Inara's high society comes crumbling down when you scrape off that thin layer of veneer).

Except the high society of Persephone isn't really Inara's high society. I bet the Sihnon folk would giggle on the floor if they saw them. I mean, really. This is Persephone, not the Core.

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One can only imagine what kind of twisted society these rich folks live in. So, while I don't see Banning having undergone any 'classical' forms of abuse, one could, of course, argue that growing up in such a world is perhaps the greatest form of abuse of them all. But, if so, then not one the Banning girl suffered from exclusively, but rather their society at large.

So you basically insist that it must be the entirety of her rich society that was tough to grow up in.

I'll disagree based on this being a rather simplistic condemnation of an entire society with little evidence to support it and focus more on her parents, specifically her father.

I guess that's where we differ, really. :)

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

And the "independent" comment was a word play. Independent as in "not Guild-affiliated", not as in the political position, but Mal alludes to the similarity of attitudes. The not paying thing, though, I would very very much class under Mal wanting to do Inara a favor, which becomes plain when she dismisses his offer. His reaction to that is pretty tell-tale, especially since he repeats her words later in front of Nandi to express his irritation. I think he would have helped Guild-affiliated Companions out for free, as well, if it was because Inara asked him and they somehow couldn't afford to pay.

I agree that the "Independent" comment was just word play: Mal is not so daft as to equate these working girls with those who fought on the losing side of the war (still not convinced it was the wrong one).

I say it's still a bit of a double whammy, though. Mal wants to do Inara a favor, yes; but, at the same time, it's also a dig at her profession, in that by supporting whores he shoves it in Inara's face, once more, that he basically respects whores more than he does the whole Companion business. I reckon because whores, in Mal's eyes, don't live "The lie of it." Mal respects that. Also, whores are 'little people', again, in Mal's eyes, so I say he naturally feels he's on the same boat with them, as it were.

As to why Inara rejected his offer (which was clearly painful for Mal), I dunno. Professional pride, I think, certainly played into it: she simply doesn't want him to think he's doing a Companion a favor by helping out whores. Could also be she picked up on Mal's not-so-covert dig at her profession.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

I did not intend to imply Mal equated Nandi's whores with browncoats. But that he admired and supported the SPIRIT of the non-union or non-Alliance whores, perhaps.

ASARIAN

Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Then why isn't the old guy useless? Why are not ALL the old guys useless?

Who's to say he isn't? :) Just because we may sympathize with him, in the moment, because of putting Banning in her place in favor of Kaylee, doesn't mean he isn't part of the same clique. I reckon he is.

As for hypocracy, I imagine they're all hypocrites to a degree, and that, purely amongst themselves, not a very great effort is made to keep up the facade. A conceited jerk like Atherton is still honest enough to come out and say all of them just wish Inara were in their bed. And even Sir Harrow's "You're mistaken, Sir. I'm an honest man." routine lasts but a mere few seconds: he still wants to move some property off-world, discretely, and readily comes about.

Quote:

Quote:

The dynamic of Dangerous Liaisons leaps to mind.

And even in that book/movie, not everyone who is rich (which is everyone) is evil and useless. Only the two protagonists. That's not a social commentary but a look at two people who react to their life in this particular way.

And, in Shindig, not every girl is like Banning, either. Her girlfriends play along a bit -- but mostly, I reckon, because she has the higher standing, and they're not gonna side with a total unknown, obviously lower-class, girl, against Banning. But the way they giggle, after Banning has been humiliated, suggests they certainly weren't horribly offended seeing Banning taken down a peg or two.

Yes, in Dangerous Liaisons not everyone who is rich (which is everyone) is evil and useless. Still, being independently wealthy seems almost like a conditio sine qua non for such a playground. After all, regular folks have to work, and have exactly no time for games. And I just happen to think Banning fits the 'bored rich girl' profile perfectly. She's not really evil, btw: just bored out of her skull.

Quote:

I wasn't talking about physical abuse.

I was talking about emotional neglect, something that can happen at any social sphere.

'Cept that Banning isn't from any social sphere, but a very rich one. The emotional neglect -- which I'm sure she endured -- plays right into the whole 'utter boredom' thingy: mom & daddy being way too busy being important to pay much attention to their kids, yet endowed with enough cashey money to 'make up' for their absence by spoiling them rotten, is the perfect breeding ground for Banning's personality and behavior.

Quote:

Except the high society of Persephone isn't really Inara's high society.

Tell that to Inara. :) I'm sure she doesn't equate Persephone with Sihnon. Still, when she tells Mal, "I don't suppose you'd find it up the standards of your outings," she's certainly letting him know she thinks it's more her world than his.

Quote:

I bet the Sihnon folk would giggle on the floor if they saw them. I mean, really.

I'm fair certain they would. The Persephone nobility pales in comparision to, say, the circles the Tams go round in. But I guess that just strengthens the hypocracy of their little world. That layer of veneer really is very, very thin. I mean, I doubt you'd see Gabriel Tam check his gun at the door. :) You think that's a commetary on the Persephone society?

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So you basically insist that it must be the entirety of her rich society that was tough to grow up in.

Well, I wasn't insisting, really, but I'm sure having to cope with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune isn't always easy, and certainly can mess up a kid or two. I think, for instance, Kaylee's life was easier: less rich, of course (money-wise), but also a lot less complicated.

Quote:

I'll disagree based on this being a rather simplistic condemnation of an entire society with little evidence to support it and focus more on her parents, specifically her father.

Funny how you reckon that, as I see it the exact opposite way: I see no specific evidence to suggest

PHOENIXROSE

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
As to why Inara rejected his offer (which was clearly painful for Mal)

Inara is fighting the growing ties between them.

She quite clearly is, which has always made me kind of confused when I've seen people talk about how Mal 'betrayed' her in Heart of Gold. She's very cold to him about their relationship, quite deliberately, and shortly thereafter a gorgeous, tough woman gives him some very warm attention. He has feelings for Inara, but there's nothing really established between them. What would most people have done? He's still concerned about her reaction, and she shows nothing of the pain she's feeling, channeling it into a snark and then finding a place to cry. I always found her behavior rather immature, while the general opinion I've seen is that Mal was selfish and insensitive. He wasn't the one trained to pick up on the subtlest hints to mood. He knows only what he hears. Inara was driving him away, and then she was so hurt she'd succeeded and so unsure what to do about it and the relationship in general that she left.

[/sig]

BYTEMITE

Thursday, February 12, 2009 7:08 PM

Or, the OTHER explanation that I'm liking better the more I think on it. Gives her a very good reason to keep pushing him away, even though, in that scene where she's crying, she obviously wishes she didn't have to. Want to avoid potential spoilers here, but anyone who's read Better Days may know the theory I'm talking about.

I don't think Mal betrayed her so much as he betrayed himself, really. It's pretty obvious in a couple episodes that he'd like to pursue a relationship with her if she wanted it and he didn't have his own issues. The way Mal thinks, and his traditional upbringing (and I suspect he's a raging romantic underneath it all, I mean, just listen to some of the speeches he gives Inara, jeez!), I wouldn't be surprised if he thought of what he did as being unfaithful. "You're not bothered?" is kind of a guilty question, he thinks he's done something wrong.

Inara knows she has no claim on him, that's why I'm starting to agree that his indiscretion with Nandi isn't what she's crying about, but rather she's crying about the truth about their respective situations, how it can't work. What Mal did only made it more apparent.

ASARIAN

Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

I don't think Mal betrayed her so much as he betrayed himself, really. It's pretty obvious in a couple episodes that he'd like to pursue a relationship with her if she wanted it and he didn't have his own issues. The way Mal thinks, and his traditional upbringing (and I suspect he's a raging romantic underneath it all, I mean, just listen to some of the speeches he gives Inara, jeez!), I wouldn't be surprised if he thought of what he did as being unfaithful. "You're not bothered?" is kind of a guilty question, he thinks he's done something wrong.

Inara knows she has no claim on him, that's why I'm starting to agree that his indiscretion with Nandi isn't what she's crying about, but rather she's crying about the truth about their respective situations, how it can't work. What Mal did only made it more apparent.

As was written, "There are only two tragedies in life: one is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it." I believe Inara is crying because of the latter: she got exactly what she wanted. She kept pushing Mal away, until one day she realized he really WAS away (in the arms of another woman).

Theirs was a strained dance: Mal continually insulting Inara's profession, as his more-or-less clumsly way of letting her know he cares for her (in that he wants better for her), vs. Inara carefully not letting Mal get too close, lest she might have to deal with her feelings for him. Nandi, as it were, tipped the balance. Mal, indeed, feels guilty. I would say not even for being unfaithful to Inara per se, so much as being unfaithful to their mutual ritual. Inara knows the dance has ended, and Mal knows he had a part in that. He knows he ruined -- in terms of unfaithfulness -- not a romantic relationship between them that was, but one that could have been. Whereupon Inara concludes it's time to make the breakage 'official', as it were, and decides to leave: with no possibilities left, in her mind, it seems the only sensible thing to do.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

BYTEMITE

Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:47 PM

Or she was leaving because if they ever did get involved, Mal would be very hurt at the end of it because of her secrets... Which is the view I've kind of started to lean towards.

But I do agree she's chosen to push Mal away, and it turns out it wasn't something she wanted, but I still think she has a good reason for it. Besides the whole violent criminal/unacceptable partner thing, because she does seem to get a kick out of crime sometimes. :)

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