Question about the planet Miranda

POSTED BY: nihonniirugaijin
UPDATED: Monday, December 29, 2008 00:47
VIEWED: 9174
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NIHONNIIRUGAIJIN

Monday, December 15, 2008 9:44 AM

I recently say “Serenity” for the second time. I was really enjoying the first half, but the second half didn’t sit well with me this time around. I guess I didn’t notice these things the first time through because I was nicely toasted by the time I reached the second half. There were several things that puzzled me, but the big one is below. I would be interested to get responses that might point out the errors of my thinking.

I didn’t buy the fact that the entire population of Miranda, 30 million people, could die out or become Reavors, and just 12 years later absolutely no one would remember that either they or the planet Miranda had even existed. I know that the Alliance deleted all information about Miranda from the databases, but didn’t any of those people on Miranda have relatives on other planets who would remember them? This scenario would be like a country with a population of around 30 million people (say Canada or Iraq) disappearing off the face of the Earth and 12 years later no one would remember that Canada or Iraq had ever existed.

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, December 15, 2008 9:55 AM

Yes, but what if an entirely new landmass were discovered or created, and around 30,000 people were sent to colonize it? If they all vanished, would anyone remember a decade later?
Maybe, but it would be a tragedy, an accident, the planes or ships crashed, plague wiped them out, they starved, etc.
Remember that you're talking about a vast solar system, with more than 70 habitable spheres spinning in it. The population is vaster than it could ever be on one planet (hence why 30 million in that verse would probably translate closer to 30,000 on this world) and the dangers are greater. Limping through space in a revamped cargo carrier, a one-way push to the outer rim? Way more dangerous than putting out to open sea in, say, a sailboat.
So the friends and relatives who hadn't gone with those settlers probably did remember. But those people never made it all the way to the rim, or the terraforming on the new planet hadn't held, and it was a loss and a tragedy, but these things happen sometimes out on the frontier, and no one talked about it, no one connected it to Reavers, and eventually the planet was erased from record, a black rock not included in the habitable worlds taught about in schools. The way Mal said "Terraforming didn't take or somesuch" indicates to me that those things did happen, and were mostly written off as a consequence of settling a solar system, a vast and brutal frontier.

[/sig]

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, December 15, 2008 10:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:
I recently say “Serenity” for the second time. I was really enjoying the first half, but the second half didn’t sit well with me this time around. I guess I didn’t notice these things the first time through because I was nicely toasted by the time I reached the second half. There were several things that puzzled me, but the big one is below. I would be interested to get responses that might point out the errors of my thinking.

I didn’t buy the fact that the entire population of Miranda, 30 million people, could die out or become Reavors, and just 12 years later absolutely no one would remember that either they or the planet Miranda had even existed. I know that the Alliance deleted all information about Miranda from the databases, but didn’t any of those people on Miranda have relatives on other planets who would remember them? This scenario would be like a country with a population of around 30 million people (say Canada or Iraq) disappearing off the face of the Earth and 12 years later no one would remember that Canada or Iraq had ever existed.

They remembered, they remembered that Alliance said terraforming didn't hold,. it became uninhabitable, all settlers died.
This was before the War for Domination, and many forgot about sily settlers dying. Some feel the War was a result of Miranda, and keeping it secret. (like Clinton dropping bombs to distract from his shenanigans).

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, December 15, 2008 10:10 AM

Plus anybody curious to visit an uninhabitalbe place like Miranda only need pass THROUGH the gauntlet of the Reaver Armada.

NIHONNIIRUGAIJIN

Monday, December 15, 2008 12:50 PM

If that was the case, why didn't the Alliance NOT wipe out all the information on Miranda in the database, and instead just state that the terraforming didn't hold? Remember that Wash couldn't find ANY information on Miranda when he did a search for it.

NIHONNIIRUGAIJIN

Monday, December 15, 2008 12:50 PM

If that was the case, why didn't the Alliance NOT wipe out all the information on Miranda in the database, and instead just state that the terraforming didn't hold? Remember that Wash couldn't find ANY information on Miranda when he did a search for it.

AGENTROUKA

Monday, December 15, 2008 12:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:
If that was the case, why didn't the Alliance NOT wipe out all the information on Miranda in the database, and instead just state that the terraforming didn't hold? Remember that Wash couldn't find ANY information on Miranda when he did a search for it.

I think initially they spread the information about the terraforming malfunctioning, back when a wave of family and friends and perhaps trading partners noticed that Miranda citizens stopped responding. Then they started wiping the information from the databases.

Remember, the information about the terraforming is what some of the crew remember, not what they find online.

ZZETTA13

Monday, December 15, 2008 1:29 PM

It’s really not unthinkable that the all mighty powers that be could cover up an incident like Miranda. I’ve seen somewhere where there’s 6 billion people inhabiting our own tiny planet, just think of a area in space that may contain 50 billion, on different worlds. It’s entirely believable that the people of the verse would find what they have been told to be the truth.

Just remember, 45 years ago the president of the US of A was shot in broad daylight in front of thousands and some still think (or because of time are uninterested) there was a lone gunman. That Oswald was quite the marksman.

Z

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Monday, December 15, 2008 8:23 PM

There is also the fact that people probably didn't care. Not out of cruelty but because life was so damned hard that you really only have time to worry about what is in your current landscape. We lose touch with people and relatives all the time in our world, just imagine one light years away.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

Trolls Against McCain

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

STAPLES

Monday, December 15, 2008 11:23 PM

I had a problem with this my own self, and whenever somebody said anything about it I covered my ears and went "la, la, la, I can't hear you!"

I do agree, and like all the responses though - I like the justification, and it works, so I'll leave it at that.

NCBROWNCOAT

Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:02 AM

Unfortunately a lot of people have already forgotten about the World Trade Center being attacked on 9/11 or think it was a conspiracy.

Collectively our memories are short and if it disappeared from the history books few would remember. See also Hitler's and Stalin's rewrite of history.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:26 AM

Why are people asserting Miranda was erased from the database? River found it on the Cortex, right? Or am I missing something here?

"History is written by the winners" - deleted scenes.

AGENTROUKA

Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ncbrowncoat:
Unfortunately a lot of people have already forgotten about the World Trade Center being attacked on 9/11 or think it was a conspiracy.

Seriously??

I find this hard to believe. Not the conspiracy part, necessarily, but the forgetting part. What is this based on?

AGENTROUKA

Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Why are people asserting Miranda was erased from the database? River found it on the Cortex, right? Or am I missing something here?

"History is written by the winners" - deleted scenes.

Wash: "Nothing about it on the Cortex. History, Astronomy, it's not in there."

I think River knew it would take her time to find some kind of special map where the planet would be depicted, if not labled as Miranda.

Mal recognizes it as a "black rock", so he must be aware of something existing in those regions of space ("the Burnham Quadrant") but he cannot make the connection to the name Miranda because the name has been erased.

It wasn't in the public consciousness for very long and it's been maybe 12 years since then. Mal was maybe 20 around the time and busy with other things so the name means nothing to him. Even Kaylee remembering it is a marvel, considering she was maybe 12 to 15 when the report got out, younger still when that call for workers to settle there got out. Maybe she only remembers because her family considered moving there and it would have been a big change in her young life.

On another subject:
I find it more and more likely that the war happened when it did to distract from Miranda. I'm sure it would have happened eventually, but the timing suggests it was started earlier than perhaps planned, explaining why it lasted so long and contained blunders that allowed the Independents to hold on to hope for such a long time. Destroying Shadow might not have happened if the war had been fully planned out by the Alliance when it was started.

RIVERLOVE

Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:53 PM

I don't really understand why the Alliance added the PAX to the atmo processors in the first place. They didn't add it in on any other planet, so why just Miranda? In Train Job, Sherriff Bourne says that ALL planets have some "bug" created by terraforming. We see no evidence of that on any other planet or moon. It was a minor plot point that Joss put in that "pilot" that he had to write over a weekend, and he didn't address it again until the BDM. And when the PAX started to "take effect" you'd think that everyone wouldn't develop the same deadly lethargy at the same time and degree. Surely there must have been some that called out to someone off-planet for help, not realizing what was happenning to them.

AGENTROUKA

Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
I don't really understand why the Alliance added the PAX to the atmo processors in the first place. They didn't add it in on any other planet, so why just Miranda?

It was an experiment, obviously. They used the settlers for guinea pigs.

Mind, I think it's a big plot hole, as they would certainly have been intelligent enough to test the PAX on smaller groups before. Maybe it was a dosage issue they didn't plan for.

Quote:
In Train Job, Sherriff Bourne says that ALL planets have some "bug" created by terraforming. We see no evidence of that on any other planet or moon. It was a minor plot point that Joss put in that "pilot" that he had to write over a weekend, and he didn't address it again until the BDM.

I think those are two different things.

The "bugs" on other planets are unintentional side effects and limited to specific, contained locations, like the mines in Paradiso.

Miranda was an intentionally added chemical with un expected side effects.

Quote:
And when the PAX started to "take effect" you'd think that everyone wouldn't develop the same deadly lethargy at the same time and degree. Surely there must have been some that called out to someone off-planet for help, not realizing what was happenning to them.

I think this, too, falls in the category of plot hole. Unless they released the PAX very suddenly and it DID take very quick and immediate effect.

RIVERLOVE

Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Miranda was an intentionally added chemical with un expected side effects.

Maybe the "good intentions" cover was just a ploy. After all, doctors and scientists are rarely in authority to make decisions, but they are typically in positions to be expolited by the military or evil-doers. Perhaps Miranda was a military "experiment" that turned out exactly as they hoped, something to be used in the future to destroy entire planetary populations with.

AGENTROUKA

Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Miranda was an intentionally added chemical with un expected side effects.

Maybe the "good intentions" cover was just a ploy. After all, doctors and scientists are rarely in authority to make decisions, but they are typically in positions to be expolited by the military or evil-doers. Perhaps Miranda was a military "experiment" that turned out exactly as they hoped, something to be used in the future to destroy entire planetary populations with.

It seems like an irrational waste of ressources, though. An entire planet! All these people! The experiment could have been conducted on a smaller scale. Or with people who aren't loyal to the Alliance. The Alliance wants to rule people, not engage in genocide. They're misguided in their overcontrolling ways, not megalomalical murderers like the nazis. There is no evidence for such an assumption.

Not to mention, what hostile planet would allow anyone near their air processors to fiddle with them and put in chemicals? Doesn't want to make sense.

RIVERLOVE

Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:07 PM

OK, the military thing is a bit far-fetched, but what else then? They wanted to "calm" the population on Miranda? Why? Where these people any different than the billions on the other worlds? Looks like they had a nice civilized world. Why not "test" the Pax on Jianying, Triumph, or Beaumond, which were much more rustic and less populated?

AGENTROUKA

Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
OK, the military thing is a bit far-fetched, but what else then? They wanted to "calm" the population on Miranda? Why? Where these people any different than the billions on the other worlds? Looks like they had a nice civilized world. Why not "test" the Pax on Jianying, Triumph, or Beaumond, which were much more rustic and less populated?

Miranda was new and less established, less known. And look at how advanced it is. Dozens of shiny-rich cities like the one they entered? That's no common new settler world. That's an Alliance Border pet project. Lots more access for them to meddle than on the Independent planets usually found on the Border or Rim. IF we have to swallow that they experimented on a whole planet, then Miranda's the ideal place.

Plus, they spread it through the air processors. Try getting close to those on a place like Jiangying. Even if it is near uncivilized in most places, the terraforming equipment would have to be under constant surveilence by trained professionals.

They didn't want to calm the population of Miranda specifically. Miranda was simply the best possible place for their experiment. Likely they were hoping to show off this beacon of civilization to the Independent planets once the PAX had made everyone on Miranda peaceful and happy 24/7.

RIVERLOVE

Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:33 PM

Your knowledge is impressive, and your answers are intriguing. Thank You!

NCBROWNCOAT

Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by ncbrowncoat:
Unfortunately a lot of people have already forgotten about the World Trade Center being attacked on 9/11 or think it was a conspiracy.

Seriously??

I find this hard to believe. Not the conspiracy part, necessarily, but the forgetting part. What is this based on?

Not necessarily forgetting, but it isn't at the front of the national conciousness. of course, the people who lost loved ones will never forget and I certainly won't but there are kids now 7 years old that didn't experience it at all and those under 18 most likely won't remember it, except as a school lesson, if it's taught at all.

I figure that eventually it'll end up like the attack on Pearl Harbor. Unless you are a history nut (like me), I don't think that the average person aged 30 or younger could tell you who attacked the US or tell you when it was within 5 years.

It's a sign that our school systems are failing. To paraphrase, those that don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

AGENTROUKA

Tuesday, December 16, 2008 7:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ncbrowncoat:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by ncbrowncoat:
Unfortunately a lot of people have already forgotten about the World Trade Center being attacked on 9/11 or think it was a conspiracy.

Seriously??

I find this hard to believe. Not the conspiracy part, necessarily, but the forgetting part. What is this based on?

Not necessarily forgetting, but it isn't at the front of the national conciousness. of course, the people who lost loved ones will never forget and I certainly won't but there are kids now 7 years old that didn't experience it at all and those under 18 most likely won't remember it, except as a school lesson, if it's taught at all.

I figure that eventually it'll end up like the attack on Pearl Harbor. Unless you are a history nut (like me), I don't think that the average person aged 30 or younger could tell you who attacked the US or tell you when it was within 5 years.

It's a sign that our school systems are failing. To paraphrase, those that don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

I don't know. I think the term "9/11" is pretty helpful in allowing a person to remember. I find it almost poetically telling that this is what became the immediately recognized short hand for these attacks. Pearl Harbor works for a location, but the events of 9/11 defied an immediate description. It's just the date that everyone remembers who was old enough to understand when it happened.

I agree there should be a greater emphasis on such basic historic facts in general knowledge, just to allow people to put current events into context.

But I disagree that 9/11 specifically should be on the forefront of the national consciousness 24/7, 7 years after it happened. Within it, yes, absolutely. But on the forefront? Maybe as one aspect of a web of international terrorism that is currently such a vile threat to many countries in the world, and the wars that resulted as a reaction to it. Focusing just on 9/11 seems to emphasize the horrible and unjustifiable tragedy more than its equally dramatic effects upon world history.

PHOENIXROSE

Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:16 PM

I don't think anyone's forgotten about the attacks on 9/11 unless they hadn't been born yet. If you want to say anything about them was forgotten, you could point to the fact that a lot of people readily believed we needed to invade Iraq as a response, even though no one in Iraq had anything to do with it. No one forgets Osama Bin Laudin's name, but a lot of people forget where he's from.
Likewise, no one who had cause to know everyone on Miranda had been wiped out would forget a planet full of people dying, but could certainly be led to believe a false cause, especially if they had no inkling of the actual one.
As to why it was wiped from the cortex, seems to me that the main focus would be on habitable worlds, that's where people would want to go, and if they came across a world that wasn't on their charts, they would know it wasn't a safe place to land, wouldn't just go exploring (especially through Reaver space, but there were probably other black rocks out there, land that hadn't been terraformed yet or places that wouldn't take the terraforming) If there were hundreds of moons, clearly not all of them were transformed into New Earths, because there weren't hundreds of Earths in the solar system. So, in terms of information, the most vital would be considered to be where it was you could actually go, and the rest would be left out, ostensibly to limit confusion. Since they didn't travel at light speed or in hyperspace or anything like that, charting a course free of a black rock would be less vital; they would see one coming and go around it. So Miranda wasn't taught about, wasn't talked about, was just a footnote of a place that "couldn't support life."

[/sig]

RIVERLOVE

Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

But I disagree that 9/11 specifically should be on the forefront of the national consciousness 24/7, 7 years after it happened. Within it, yes, absolutely. But on the forefront?

I agree. It's one thing to remember and honor, another to obssess. Japanese kids today who live and go to school in Hiroshima & Nagasaki do not know what happenned in their own cities in 1945. I saw that on a recent documentary, and I found it very disturbing. Great national tragedies should be remembered, not censored from the memory of mankind. 9/11 is like that for me. I'll never forget it, but I don't live with it in my thoughts every day.

NCBROWNCOAT

Wednesday, December 17, 2008 2:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I don't think anyone's forgotten about the attacks on 9/11 unless they hadn't been born yet. If you want to say anything about them was forgotten, you could point to the fact that a lot of people readily believed we needed to invade Iraq as a response, even though no one in Iraq had anything to do with it. No one forgets Osama Bin Laudin's name, but a lot of people forget where he's from.
Likewise, no one who had cause to know everyone on Miranda had been wiped out would forget a planet full of people dying, but could certainly be led to believe a false cause, especially if they had no inkling of the actual one.
As to why it was wiped from the cortex, seems to me that the main focus would be on habitable worlds, that's where people would want to go, and if they came across a world that wasn't on their charts, they would know it wasn't a safe place to land, wouldn't just go exploring (especially through Reaver space, but there were probably other black rocks out there, land that hadn't been terraformed yet or places that wouldn't take the terraforming) If there were hundreds of moons, clearly not all of them were transformed into New Earths, because there weren't hundreds of Earths in the solar system. So, in terms of information, the most vital would be considered to be where it was you could actually go, and the rest would be left out, ostensibly to limit confusion. Since they didn't travel at light speed or in hyperspace or anything like that, charting a course free of a black rock would be less vital; they would see one coming and go around it. So Miranda wasn't taught about, wasn't talked about, was just a footnote of a place that "couldn't support life."

[/sig]

Phoenix Rose, you put it very well. I think I was using a bad example in 9/11, but it was the first one I thought of.

What I'm trying to say is that our collective memory is very short lived, and then the scenario you described is most likely possible.

"Black Rock, terra forming accident, uninhibitible, Reavers, don't go there."

Does anyone think that this would happen to Shadow? People forgetting how Shadow became uninhabitable and not thinking a thing about it?

I know it wouldn't fade away while the veteran Browncoats still lived, or would Shadow become like the Alamo and become a symbol of resistance for generations to come?

I know my response, good Browncoat that I am, but if the Alliance could make Miranda "disappear" by ignoring it could they, with the passage of time, could they do the same thing to Shadow?

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, December 17, 2008 3:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ncbrowncoat:

Does anyone think that this would happen to Shadow? People forgetting how Shadow became uninhabitable and not thinking a thing about it?

I know it wouldn't fade away while the veteran Browncoats still lived, or would Shadow become like the Alamo and become a symbol of resistance for generations to come?

I know my response, good Browncoat that I am, but if the Alliance could make Miranda "disappear" by ignoring it could they, with the passage of time, could they do the same thing to Shadow?

Considering how often Shadow is mentioned on the show (once, and not at all in relation to its destruction) vs Serenity Valley (all the time) I doubt it is as important to the general consciousness or to all Browncoats. If this was the unspeakable war crime to end all war crimes that must always be remembered - or the grand epic symbol of resistance - then it would have come up before. From Mal or Zoe, if anything. Mal seemed downright lighthearted talking about his life there to Saffron. Try getting a funny Serenity Valley story out of him.

Just because it was Mal's homeplanet and was made uninhabitable during the course of the war doesn't automatically mean that it was the only place this happened to or that no one saw it coming or... you know? I don't think that in the course of the war, Shadow stands out. It was one ugly aspect of a long and ugly war.

Ask the same question about Serenity Valley and you get the very valid anser in the deleted scene from the pilot, where Simon oh-so-expositionarily has to consult his portable cortex history book about "Serenity Valley". A civillian in the Core who was too young to serve during the war probably doesn't know much about it. The Alliance captain in "Bushwhacked" seems to have some much more personal memories of the time and reacts emotionally. We don't know how much an Independent civilian like Kaylee would know because it's never mentioned.

We can probably assume that Independent and Alliance veterans are the ones to care and remember the most about any of the grand battle sites, each for personal reasons. The rest of the 'verse was probably more than eager to move on after the war, Independent and Alliance-affiliated planets alike. The mark anniversaries (U-day) but they'd much rather rebuild and adapt than cling to a nightmarish five years of destruction.

SWISH

Wednesday, December 17, 2008 3:32 AM

Come on, folks. What fraction of the world's present population thinks about Darfur or Rwanda on a daily basis? Of course a huge number of people can die horribly and the human race can move on as if it never happened.

Sad. Beyond sad, but true.

NIHONNIIRUGAIJIN

Wednesday, December 17, 2008 5:16 AM

But Miranda should still have been listed in the astronomy database. It was a planet in the solar system, after all. Do you really think only habited planets and moons would be listed? By that logic, only our Earth should be listed in any description of our solar system. It would have made far more sense for the Alliance to state that there had been a terraforming incident on Miranda rather than deleting all reference to it and hoping people forgot about it.

Also, regarding Reaver space: the Reavers' aggression response "increased beyond madness". So how could these people function as a group? Someone had to be deciding where the fleet would be located, what planets to raid, etc. But I can't picture the Reaver rank and file taking orders.

NIHONNIIRUGAIJIN

Wednesday, December 17, 2008 5:21 AM

Rwanda was over 12 years ago and plenty of people still remember it. By contrast, nobody in the Firefly 'verse was curious as to why they couldn't find Miranda on the Cortex 12 years after the Pax debacle? C'mon!

PHOENIXROSE

Wednesday, December 17, 2008 6:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:
By that logic, only our Earth should be listed in any description of our solar system.

We don't travel our solar system. There aren't hundreds of worlds to keep track of in our solar system. People who could fly from one planet to another with relative ease would have a different view of astronomy than we do. It would be taught in schools like geography. I don't even remember the name of every country I learned about in geography, and I doubt very many people do. Who would keep track of countries that were incapable of supporting life? Countries without something as basic as oxygen? We wouldn't. We keep track of the planets because there are eight of them, and they intrigue us still because we have no good way of getting there, but planets in the 'verse are like countries. Countries farther flung than any we live with now. Most people probably barely heard of Miranda, and when the experiment went wrong, it was easy enough to declare it a black rock, wait a short interval, and erase reference to it.

As to the organization of Reavers, it's something that's also puzzled me, and has been the subject of a few threads here. I think it's a far greater hole than a huge planetary government successfully covering up their blunder, though there have been a few fairly good thoughts on how they survive, how thier society might work.

[/sig]

NIHONNIIRUGAIJIN

Wednesday, December 17, 2008 6:59 AM

You analogy of Firefly astronomy and our current geography proves my point. Go on the internet, our version of the Cortex, and you can find information on every uninhabited tiny islet in any ocean of the world. Let's say you hear about, oh, Henderson Island, type it in Google and you have information on it.

Just because a planet is uninhabited certainly doesn't mean it is not going to be on the charts of the Firefly solar system.

NIHONNIIRUGAIJIN

Wednesday, December 17, 2008 7:04 AM

Also, I would like to read the threads about Reavers, but I could not find any when I scanned the list of threads. Can you provide a link? Thanks in advance.

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:
You analogy of Firefly astronomy and our current geography proves my point. Go on the internet, our version of the Cortex, and you can find information on every uninhabited tiny islet in any ocean of the world. Let's say you hear about, oh, Henderson Island, type it in Google and you have information on it.

Just because a planet is uninhabited certainly doesn't mean it is not going to be on the charts of the Firefly solar system.

For one, who randomly googles Henderson Island? Who would really notice if they renamed it Winchester Island?

It's lots more difficult, when just the name is removed from the databases. The planet itself was not, though it was listed as black rock, but the name was probably removed. Other related files (calls for settlers) maybe have been removed or altered to make the number of settlers appear smaller. Just enough to blur the connection between the failed planet and the black rock located behind Reaver Territory. Suppress reports about Reavers, as well... I see it fading from consciousness because no one cares about that area of space. IN particular because a giant war seemed to happened straight on the heels of that incident. For all we know there was more than one failed terraforming attempt, so why should Miranda stand out?

PHOENIXROSE

Wednesday, December 17, 2008 10:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:
Also, I would like to read the threads about Reavers, but I could not find any when I scanned the list of threads. Can you provide a link? Thanks in advance.

They've all been archived by now.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=2&t=14212
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=2&t=25463
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=2&t=18530
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=2&t=19023

just to name a few.

Also, I will assume this Henderson Island has oxygen and so forth. It's not uninhabitable, just uninhabited.

[/sig]

IMNOTHERE

Saturday, December 20, 2008 5:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:
Go on the internet, our version of the Cortex, and you can find information on every uninhabited tiny islet in any ocean of the world.

Yes, because you can trust Google and Wikipedia not to censor things.

Hmm.

Even so, our Internet is an ungovernable free-for-all because it snuck in under the radar of the "powers that be" - even though they built big parts of it, they didn't anticipate what it would become. I'm sure the Alliance/Blue Sun corp wouldn't have made that mistake again and could suppress any info on the cortex they didn't like, unless it got into the hands of a well equipped hacker like Mr Universe.

I live in the UK, but I've visited the US many times and I have colleagues with family there - so on 24/7, I was immediately wondering whether so-and-so has got back from the States OK, and what part of New York wossname works in.

The 'verse isn't like that: travel time between worlds is measured in days and weeks, not hours. People who leave to settle other worlds are gone for good, their families will have had their "American wakes" and bade them farewell.

Plus, the only people with the money/free time to be tourists would be the good Alliance citizens of the inner planets, who strike me as a fairly hedonistic bunch who aren't going to slum it on some outback planet when they can have two weeks in a 5-star hotel on Ariel (especially as everywhere else looks like the desert 50 miles out from LA. The Miranda colonists were likely recruited from shitholes on the outer moons. Their families probably don't take foreign holidays or subscribe to broadband cortex access...

So, its likely to be much easier to pull off the "Miranda" deception in the 'verse than on Earth-that-currently-is.

As for the other plotholes:
(1) the PAX may well have been tested on small groups for limited periods, just like they did with thalidomide and all the other drugs with side effects that didn't turn up until they had been used on a large scale...

(2) We've only met the Reavers "in battle" in full beserker mode - when the bloodlust subsides they might calm down enough to achieve some sort of organization.

SUASOR

Saturday, December 20, 2008 6:16 PM

The "Cortex" apparently allowed for relatively easy communications between planets. That said, how do you explain the sudden disappearance of 30 million people. Most of them had kin elsewhere in the verse. Kind of hard to cover that all up, unless you're writing movie scripts...

IMNOTHERE

Sunday, December 21, 2008 11:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Suasor:
The "Cortex" apparently allowed for relatively easy communications between planets. That said, how do you explain the sudden disappearance of 30 million people.

Not sure what the population of the 'verse is, but its probably many times that of Earth-that-is and 30 million is a drop in the ocean.

Most of the 'verse vaguely remember a 12-year old story from before the war about a terrible terraforming failure that killed a lot of people on some backwater planet. All the Alliance has to do is to stop the news media "celebrating" every anniversary of "The Miranda Tradgedy" (as CNN, BBC etc are wont to do) and it will fade into obscurity.

Now, if 30 million well-fed sons and daughters of a central world like Ariel had vanished, there might have been more questions asked. However, odds are that these colonists were recruited from any number of backwater moons like Triumph or Whitefall which had pretty much reverted to the 18th or 19th century and where life was tough and anarchic. Its not hard to imagine that on such worlds, cortex access was a 10 mile hike and a week's wages and youngsters going off to make their fortune where the grass was browner and never being heard of again was a common occurrence. As long as not too many of the bereaved get together, compare notes and realise that so many people died in one place, the Alliance is home and dry.

That's one of the reasons that the 'verse is such a rich arena for storytelling: it is plausible that these sort of things could be covered up.

SUASOR

Sunday, December 21, 2008 12:44 PM

Yes, that would work, especially if there had been such terraforming disasters before. But the coverup would be a formidable undertaking, especially in what we are led to believe is a democracy. Then again, the back story seems to indicate much corruption (thus the need for "Operatives" to take care of the loose ends.)

That new map of the verse, showing Miranda on the ass end of nowhere, makes it appear possible to keep the curious away from the place, which is actually untouched (except for everything being shutdown and everyone dead.)

NCBROWNCOAT

Sunday, December 21, 2008 3:18 PM

Also, Jane0904's just completed "Prospero's Legacy" is a good take on Reavers and how they might be "bred" and "militarized" by various factions in the 'Verse.

She also explores who might be vulnerable to become a Reaver and that itself explains a lot about how Reaver society works.

Also read her blog on how it all came together in her 'Verse. It's an interesting look into the creative process.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

NIHONNIIRUGAIJIN

Monday, December 22, 2008 6:15 AM

For the love of God, is common sense so rare among some of us? The reason that some drugs' side effects are not apparent until large numbers of people take them is because the side effects affect a small number of patients, say 1 in 10,000. So the side affects aren't obvious until many people are on the drug. In contrast, the Pax affected 100% of the population. They all either died or became Reavers. So no matter how small the number of people tested with the Pax, the affects of the Pax would be clear. Even if only 10 people were tested, they all would have died or become Reavers. Therefore, the Alliance could not have tested the Pax before adding it to the air processors. The Alliance went to the expense of terraforming a planet, building dozens of cities, and moving 30 million people to Miranda, and then added an untested chemical to the air? That is plausible to some you?!?!

NIHONNIIRUGAIJIN

Monday, December 22, 2008 6:27 AM

Travel and communication are not that slow in the Firefly 'verse. First, the Firefly 'verse is just one solar system. The Cortex allows fast communication between all parts of the solar system, as evidenced by the Serenity crew always being able to contact whomever they want. Have you even seen an instance where they couldn't get ahold of the person they wanted to talk to? No!

Also, the travel times between planets are measured in days at most in the show.

So the idea that Miranda was so remote that nobody noticed a planet with dozens of cities and 30 million get wiped out, or that they forgot about such a catastrophic event in just 12 years, defies common sense.

NIHONNIIRUGAIJIN

Monday, December 22, 2008 6:57 AM

My point is that humans name the features in their landscape, no matter how remote. That's why we name remote uninhabited islands on Earth. The Firefly 'verse is one solar system. That something as large as a planet in a single inhabited solar system would not have a name on the charts is extremely implausible.

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:
You analogy of Firefly astronomy and our current geography proves my point. Go on the internet, our version of the Cortex, and you can find information on every uninhabited tiny islet in any ocean of the world. Let's say you hear about, oh, Henderson Island, type it in Google and you have information on it.

Just because a planet is uninhabited certainly doesn't mean it is not going to be on the charts of the Firefly solar system.

For one, who randomly googles Henderson Island? Who would really notice if they renamed it Winchester Island?

It's lots more difficult, when just the name is removed from the databases. The planet itself was not, though it was listed as black rock, but the name was probably removed. Other related files (calls for settlers) maybe have been removed or altered to make the number of settlers appear smaller. Just enough to blur the connection between the failed planet and the black rock located behind Reaver Territory. Suppress reports about Reavers, as well... I see it fading from consciousness because no one cares about that area of space. IN particular because a giant war seemed to happened straight on the heels of that incident. For all we know there was more than one failed terraforming attempt, so why should Miranda stand out?

NIHONNIIRUGAIJIN

Monday, December 22, 2008 7:26 AM

What makes you think Miranda was a backwater like Whitefall? The city the crew lands in looks pretty substantial, like nothing portrayed on the border planets.
Also, in Serenity there is the following exchange:

Jayne: This ain't no little settlement.
Zoe: We flew over at least a dozen cities just as big.

So the evidence indicates a world with substantial infrastructure, probably with substantial trade links with other worlds, etc.

Quote:
Originally posted by ImNotHere:
Quote:
Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:
Go on the internet, our version of the Cortex, and you can find information on every uninhabited tiny islet in any ocean of the world.

Yes, because you can trust Google and Wikipedia not to censor things.

Hmm.

Even so, our Internet is an ungovernable free-for-all because it snuck in under the radar of the "powers that be" - even though they built big parts of it, they didn't anticipate what it would become. I'm sure the Alliance/Blue Sun corp wouldn't have made that mistake again and could suppress any info on the cortex they didn't like, unless it got into the hands of a well equipped hacker like Mr Universe.

I live in the UK, but I've visited the US many times and I have colleagues with family there - so on 24/7, I was immediately wondering whether so-and-so has got back from the States OK, and what part of New York wossname works in.

The 'verse isn't like that: travel time between worlds is measured in days and weeks, not hours. People who leave to settle other worlds are gone for good, their families will have had their "American wakes" and bade them farewell.

Plus, the only people with the money/free time to be tourists would be the good Alliance citizens of the inner planets, who strike me as a fairly hedonistic bunch who aren't going to slum it on some outback planet when they can have two weeks in a 5-star hotel on Ariel (especially as everywhere else looks like the desert 50 miles out from LA. The Miranda colonists were likely recruited from shitholes on the outer moons. Their families probably don't take foreign holidays or subscribe to broadband cortex access...

So, its likely to be much easier to pull off the "Miranda" deception in the 'verse than on Earth-that-currently-is.

As for the other plotholes:
(1) the PAX may well have been tested on small groups for limited periods, just like they did with thalidomide and all the other drugs with side effects that didn't turn up until they had been used on a large scale...

(2) We've only met the Reavers "in battle" in full beserker mode - when the bloodlust subsides they might calm down enough to achieve some sort of organization.

AGENTROUKA

Monday, December 22, 2008 8:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:
My point is that humans name the features in their landscape, no matter how remote. That's why we name remote uninhabited islands on Earth. The Firefly 'verse is one solar system. That something as large as a planet in a single inhabited solar system would not have a name on the charts is extremely implausible.

Yeah, but considering the scale of the solar system they have colonized and the amount of traffic, it may make sense of - for example - differentiate in naming between terraformed and inhabitable places and those you shouldn't waste fuel approaching. They may well have renamed it "XXP34 - uninhabitable blackrock (used to be Miranda)" or some such. To most people "uninhabitable blackrock" would be a whole lot more important than any name attached. When people went exploring this planet, anything new that they found was awesome and it was a privilege to name it. Most people don't care about those names now. In a solar system that was already mapped before they ever entered it, naming individual rocks something fancy would be less important, just the knowing where they were, an identifier and the basic facts.

AGENTROUKA

Monday, December 22, 2008 8:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:
What makes you think Miranda was a backwater like Whitefall? The city the crew lands in looks pretty substantial, like nothing portrayed on the border planets.
Also, in Serenity there is the following exchange:

Jayne: This ain't no little settlement.
Zoe: We flew over at least a dozen cities just as big.

So the evidence indicates a world with substantial infrastructure, probably with substantial trade links with other worlds, etc.

Miranda wouldn't have been a backwater in the common sense, but since we know they called for people of Kaylee's ilk (skilled but unwealthy) to settle there, we can rest assured that it wasn't the creme de la creme of the Alliance settling there. And that it was fairly recent, since Kaylee remembers it.

And considering that it is unusually developed for a remote planet, we can likely assume that it was artificially supported by Alliance investment, not through well-established trade links or private investment. It was most definitely NOT a planet as well established and known as even Persephone, let alone a place like Osiris. THOSE could not have been buried.

AGENTROUKA

Monday, December 22, 2008 8:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:
Travel and communication are not that slow in the Firefly 'verse. First, the Firefly 'verse is just one solar system. The Cortex allows fast communication between all parts of the solar system, as evidenced by the Serenity crew always being able to contact whomever they want. Have you even seen an instance where they couldn't get ahold of the person they wanted to talk to? No!

Also, the travel times between planets are measured in days at most in the show.

So the idea that Miranda was so remote that nobody noticed a planet with dozens of cities and 30 million get wiped out, or that they forgot about such a catastrophic event in just 12 years, defies common sense.

MAYBE you could let your imagination wander toward the fact that they may have hidden its growth as part of their experiment?

AGENTROUKA

Monday, December 22, 2008 8:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:
For the love of God, is common sense so rare among some of us? The reason that some drugs' side effects are not apparent until large numbers of people take them is because the side effects affect a small number of patients, say 1 in 10,000. So the side affects aren't obvious until many people are on the drug. In contrast, the Pax affected 100% of the population. They all either died or became Reavers. So no matter how small the number of people tested with the Pax, the affects of the Pax would be clear. Even if only 10 people were tested, they all would have died or become Reavers. Therefore, the Alliance could not have tested the Pax before adding it to the air processors. The Alliance went to the expense of terraforming a planet, building dozens of cities, and moving 30 million people to Miranda, and then added an untested chemical to the air? That is plausible to some you?!?!

And would it be plausible to you to tone down the language, yes?

You ignore that the air processors may have messed around with the dosage, that there may have been a chemical reaction in the atmosphere. OBVIOUSLY it's fairly unlikely that the Miranda catastrophe could have happened with proper experimentation before hand, but it is not entirely impossible and peopel are examining the nuances of these small possibilities here.

I think it's a huge plothole, too, but I still don't see any justification for you to behave like an ill-mannered three-year-old and insult people just because you disagree with them. Play in the Real World Events Forum, people are used to rudeness there.

IMNOTHERE

Monday, December 22, 2008 6:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:
What makes you think Miranda was a backwater like Whitefall? The city the crew lands in looks pretty substantial, like nothing portrayed on the border planets.

The Alliance had clearly spent a lot of money on it, but I still got the impression that it was out on the fringes of the 'verse.

Miranda looked like a grand, well-meaning experiment by the Alliance to show that the Great Unwashed of the barbaric outer worlds could be civilized if you built them a nice place to live and work, with excellent education and leisure facilities (oh, and drugged them to stop them messing it up).

Doubtless, if it had worked, the Alliance whould have held it up triumphantly as a showcase of what life could be like on the outer worlds if only they joined the Alliance.

IMNOTHERE

Monday, December 22, 2008 7:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:
The Alliance went to the expense of terraforming a planet, building dozens of cities, and moving 30 million people to Miranda, and then added an untested chemical to the air? That is plausible to some you?!?!

Big corporation with a lucrative top-secret contract to supply a new drug does a less-than-thorough job of testing rather than risk losing money.

Politicians who know squat about science don't stop to think that just because something has (perhaps) been used as a riot control gas for 5 years without problems doesn't mean its safe for use 24/7.

Does any of that sound at all plausible to you?

I'm sure that if Joss has wanted to kill the tension he could have had hologram lady give 5 minutes of exposition which explained it all before she got et by the Reavers...

NIHONNIIRUGAIJIN

Wednesday, December 24, 2008 4:01 AM

No, sorry. There are so many holes in the theories being put forward here that it is becoming tedious to respond to them all, and this will be my last post on this topic.

To address one point made here, the Pax was not only extremely toxic (99.9% death rate, a tenth of a percent of those exposed being Reaverized) but also very fast acting (by the time the rescue ship got to Miranda, which would not have taken long as we have discussed travel times in the Firefly solar system, there were only corpses and Reavers). So even brief exposure would have provided data about the compound's effects.

Another point made here is that only people of Kaylee' socio-economic status would be recruited as colonists. But obviously, a society of 30 million people would need not only mechanics, but lawyers, doctors, political and business leaders, etc. So that argument seems weak as well.

As for the person who thinks questioning the plausibility of arguments is something a three year old would do, I just have to say that if three years olds are routinely questioning your reasoning perhaps you should re-evaluate your positions.

Folks, just admit that you are doing mental gymnastics to justify the major plot holes of Serenity, rather than admit your dear Joss did a shoddy job in writing the second half of the script. It would have made far more sense to keep Miranda on the charts with a warning to keep away due to toxins or radiation, etc. that resulted from a terraforming disaster, and to come up with a more believable reason for the planet's population crash.

PHOENIXROSE

Wednesday, December 24, 2008 4:13 AM

Dude, you asked a question, and possible answers were postulated to you. Questioning is fine, and disagreeing is fine, but screaming about how foolish anyone is to think this could ever happen and saying there's no worth in any of the thoughts on the subject, that is what a three year old does. You started the discussion, and though it's a valid discussion to start, I can only assume from your behavior that you started the discussion for the express purpose of yelling about our particular fandom, which is never a likable way to behave.
I like the story for the characters and the dialogue. The setting is interesting, but not why I like it. The premise is also interesting, but never wholly realistic. This is how most Whedon premises I've seen are, and they are not the reason I admire his work. Every work of fiction I admire has holes in it somewhere, it's one of the unfortunate facts of fiction. The story is usually making a point about humanity or something else I find interesting, or it might just be written in an enjoyable way, and that's why I like the things I like. Suck it up.

[/sig]

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Wednesday, December 24, 2008 5:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:
I guess I didn’t notice these things the first time through because I was nicely toasted by the time I reached the second half. There were several things that puzzled me, but the big one is below. I would be interested to get responses that might point out the errors of my thinking.

I didn’t buy the fact that the entire population of Miranda, 30 million people, could die out or become Reavors, and just 12 years later absolutely no one would remember that either they or the planet Miranda had even existed. I know that the Alliance deleted all information about Miranda from the databases, but didn’t any of those people on Miranda have relatives on other planets who would remember them? This scenario would be like a country with a population of around 30 million people (say Canada or Iraq) disappearing off the face of the Earth and 12 years later no one would remember that Canada or Iraq had ever existed.

A lot to wade through in this thread.
I do not find the premise implausible, at least in the points mentioned by the original post and the direct replies to it.
Kaylee recalled reqeusts for "workers" IIRC. The upper crust folk were from another strata that hers, and were dealt with differently - become landowners, businessowners, cushy jobs, big money, somesuch. These would be the Alliance toadies, from the core planets, and all their friends and relatives would meekly settle down and swallow whatever story the Alliance told them - the government would never lie, right? Look how easily and willingly the Tams wouldn't even believe their own offspring when the Alliance could spread platitudes.
The problems the alliance might have to worry about were the outer world people, watching like hawks with wary and disbelieving eyes. Best way to not only clearly identify these troublemakers, but also rid the verse of them? Why, start a War For Domination of course!!! The untold multitudes of wary and watchful killed in the War likely included those most likely to object to the stories of Miranda dying. Most who avoided the War were the same types who won't care what stories the Alliance tells.
Thus it is very reasonable that the first person to find out the truth about Miranda AND do something about it is Mal, who fought the War on the only Just side, and lost everything in it.

German children are not taught about their country's role in WWI or WWII, or the Holocaust. Nipponese chidren are not taught about their country's role in WWII, or the end of the Imperial armed forces.
The Alliance citizens would allow most Miranda lies to be spread unchallenged, no problem.

MRSUNIVERSE832

Wednesday, December 24, 2008 6:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:
Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:
I guess I didn’t notice these things the first time through because I was nicely toasted by the time I reached the second half. There were several things that puzzled me, but the big one is below. I would be interested to get responses that might point out the errors of my thinking.

I didn’t buy the fact that the entire population of Miranda, 30 million people, could die out or become Reavors, and just 12 years later absolutely no one would remember that either they or the planet Miranda had even existed. I know that the Alliance deleted all information about Miranda from the databases, but didn’t any of those people on Miranda have relatives on other planets who would remember them? This scenario would be like a country with a population of around 30 million people (say Canada or Iraq) disappearing off the face of the Earth and 12 years later no one would remember that Canada or Iraq had ever existed.

A lot to wade through in this thread.
I do not find the premise implausible, at least in the points mentioned by the original post and the direct replies to it.
Kaylee recalled reqeusts for "workers" IIRC. The upper crust folk were from another strata that hers, and were dealt with differently - become landowners, businessowners, cushy jobs, big money, somesuch. These would be the Alliance toadies, from the core planets, and all their friends and relatives would meekly settle down and swallow whatever story the Alliance told them - the government would never lie, right? Look how easily and willingly the Tams wouldn't even believe their own offspring when the Alliance could spread platitudes.
The problems the alliance might have to worry about were the outer world people, watching like hawks with wary and disbelieving eyes. Best way to not only clearly identify these troublemakers, but also rid the verse of them? Why, start a War For Domination of course!!! The untold multitudes of wary and watchful killed in the War likely included those most likely to object to the stories of Miranda dying. Most who avoided the War were the same types who won't care what stories the Alliance tells.
Thus it is very reasonable that the first person to find out the truth about Miranda AND do something about it is Mal, who fought the War on the only Just side, and lost everything in it.

Exactly!

Plus, if I'm not mistaken, I think I heard someone in the movie say he'd heard that the planet died from a terraforming event or something. If a story's been spun, and the sonambulant public (to well quote Mr. Universe) are used to believing whatever the Alliance government tells them.....then that story is "gospel".

Mrs. Universe

MR. UNIVERSE---->

<----MRS. UNIVERSE

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Wednesday, December 24, 2008 6:48 AM

Yes, Terraforming didn't take hold, or similar from Mal in that discussion.

Also, the Core denizens considered Reavers to be campfire stories like boogeymen, not real and not related to Miranda although they occupied the same space. For the past 12 years, the Reaversn had to live on something for food. Perhaps all the friends and relatives who disbelieved the government story, and wanted to find out for themselves (investigate) and could wrangle the transportation, supplied the Reaver buffet. The war years likely provided some supply of Reaver food without undue alarm, and the past 6 years (post-war) the friends & family have supplied more, but now, 6 years later the buffet is running thin and now Mal finds the Reavers spreading farther out from Miranda, crowding his space, because the Friends & Family supply has dwindled. Not to mention that when friends & family repeatedly do not return and are never heard from again, suggest to the rest that it is unhealthy to further investigate, regardless whether the reason is Alliance interference, or actual terraforming failures, or Reaver munching - the remaining relatives become more disinclined to make undue fuss.

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, December 24, 2008 7:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:

As for the person who thinks questioning the plausibility of arguments is something a three year old would do, I just have to say that if three years olds are routinely questioning your reasoning perhaps you should re-evaluate your positions.

It had nothing to do with your questioning and everything with your condescending, rude language. Just the fact that you would even try to pretend that this was aimed at your "daring" defiance of other people's choice to explore possibilities... well, it makes you look incredibly vain.

Merry Christmas, though, if that floats your boat.

ASARIAN

Monday, December 29, 2008 12:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

It was an experiment, obviously. They used the settlers for guinea pigs.

Mind, I think it's a big plot hole, as they would certainly have been intelligent enough to test the PAX on smaller groups before. Maybe it was a dosage issue they didn't plan for.

Maybe they did test it on smaller groups, but they weren't exposed long enough?

Anyway, I think Miranda was an ideal rock: just one of them settler planets (of which the folks back home expect typical pioneering troubles). Besides, it's located 'ideally' remote: not even Alliance ventures to go there if they can help it. But mainly, as has been stated above, I think nobody really cares about a few settlers on some distant rock. So, terra-forming didn't hold or some such? People just shrug and go about their business. 30 million settlers, though, that's a lot. Perhaps those numbers bother me the most, if anything.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

ASARIAN

Monday, December 29, 2008 12:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nihonniirugaijin:

To address one point made here, the Pax was not only extremely toxic (99.9% death rate, a tenth of a percent of those exposed being Reaverized)

There's no evidence at all to suggest the Pax was even remotely toxic. Rather the opposite: people ere died of an extreme form of lethargia:

"The people here stopped fighting. And then they stopped everything else. They stopped going to work... they stopped breeding, talking, eating. There's million people here, and they all just let themselves die."

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam