Discussion on Kaylee's character

POSTED BY: Momaw
UPDATED: Saturday, January 24, 2004 21:31
VIEWED: 8543
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NUR

Friday, January 23, 2004 4:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Saint Jayne:
Quote:
Originally posted by Nur:
Saint Jayne, do you really see tension between Kaylee and Simon?

I'm not trying to state anything more than what is happening on the screen. By tension, I just mean the awkwardness we observe when they interact.

Heh. I see 'tension' and think physical/sexual, you think awkwardness. Guess that shows where my mind is.

Just to follow through with my lazy-earth-mother-sexuality Kaylee, I think the engine room scene was true to character. She is a very physical person, kissing Mal, hugging everyone in sight, falling asleep ontop of Simon. She likes contact be it friendly or more than that, she enjoys tastes-strawberries anyone?, and the music from the ball on Persephone. Plainly put, Kaylee is a sensualist. She likes to feel, and taste, and hear things that make her feel good in any number of ways. In my mind, for her not to enjoy and want to have sex would be out of character just as it would be strange if there was a bowl of strawberries infront of her and she didn't take one.

Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained.
-William Blake

SHINY

Friday, January 23, 2004 5:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nur:
In my mind, for her not to enjoy and want to have sex would be out of character just as it would be strange if there was a bowl of strawberries infront of her and she didn't take one.

Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained.
-William Blake

Nur, I just had to make mention of how stunningly appropriate your sig is for this thread. (Mine? Not so much...)

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

NUR

Friday, January 23, 2004 5:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Quote:
Originally posted by Nur:
In my mind, for her not to enjoy and want to have sex would be out of character just as it would be strange if there was a bowl of strawberries infront of her and she didn't take one.

Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained.
-William Blake

Nur, I just had to make mention of how stunningly appropriate your sig is for this thread. (Mine? Not so much...)

Thanks. Flattery will get you some places.

Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained.
-William Blake

MOMAW

Friday, January 23, 2004 11:41 AM

Nur:
>> She is a very physical person, kissing Mal, hugging everyone in sight, falling asleep ontop of Simon. <<

Point of interest, they were both drunk when this happened.

>> and the music from the ball on Persephone <<

The way I read that whole bit was that Kaylee likes nice things. In fact she says as much herself:

"Ooooh, look at all the pretties!"

If she grew up as a 'prairie harpy', without a lot of glamor or luxury, then it's only natural that she's seen pictures of rich or noble women, the parties, the gowns (the food!) and want to participate. And I get the feeling that her femininity onboard the ship is somewhat repressed. Nobody tells her she's cute or has a romance with her. The only person she can really spend any girl-time with is Inara. She's always the grease-stained person wandering around fixing stuff. Kinda like she's taken for granted as a member of the crew, not seen as a young lady. Makes her a little unsecure on that score. When she gets a chance to be pretty and popular, she's gonna take it. Being able to go to the ball is the fulfilment of a sort of 'princess dream' Her dress, and the music, is her way of remembering all the things that she puts away for her role as ship's mechanic.

Yes, and there's sensualism in it too. When she's at the party talking about her dress, she says "I saw the ruffles and just couldn't help myself" and has to pet the ruffles. Plus I bet the whole thing makes a nice wooshy rustling sound, and you can see it swaying all over as she walks. She'd be fond of it for these reasons too, not simply memory.

>> a bowl of strawberries infront of her and she didn't take one. <<

Only one? That would be out of character.

A lot of you seem to be trying the 'she's non-puritanical about sex because she's a sensualist' tactic, and you're coming up with all kinds of good evidence that she's a sensualist. I'm not arguing against that; she is. Likes to experience everything to the full. What I'm arguing is that this doesn't make her promiscuous. The word 'sensualist' can mean that the person simply likes to feel/hear/taste/smell things, wants to, will take any oppourtunity to do so. For example, somebody that likes to wear silk a lot, for no other reason than the softness of it against their skin; they like the sense of it. There are other definitions, including one with a sexual component.

Seems to me that we need to all agree on one definition of the word.

DRAKON

Friday, January 23, 2004 11:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Momaw:
]I get the feeling that her femininity onboard the ship is somewhat repressed. Nobody tells her she's cute or has a romance with her.

Hmmm... So, being dressed in ruffles, not a mechanic, even for a little bit, all make her more feminine? I am not sure I get this. (Which if you knew me, ain't that unusual.)

Maybe I am strange, but Kaylee is her sexiest when she is a mechanic, covered in grease, and useful to Serenity. Her voice, those bumps under her top, the curve of her hips, (I will stop now, before the wife kills me) that what makes her feminine, which I understand as bearing the secondary sexual characteristics of a female.

But then, I never could abide useless people.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

NUR

Friday, January 23, 2004 1:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Momaw:
Nur:
>> She is a very physical person, kissing Mal, hugging everyone in sight, falling asleep ontop of Simon. <<

Point of interest, they were both drunk when this happened.

>> and the music from the ball on Persephone <<

The way I read that whole bit was that Kaylee likes nice things. In fact she says as much herself:

"Ooooh, look at all the pretties!"

If she grew up as a 'prairie harpy', without a lot of glamor or luxury, then it's only natural that she's seen pictures of rich or noble women, the parties, the gowns (the food!) and want to participate. And I get the feeling that her femininity onboard the ship is somewhat repressed. Nobody tells her she's cute or has a romance with her. The only person she can really spend any girl-time with is Inara. She's always the grease-stained person wandering around fixing stuff. Kinda like she's taken for granted as a member of the crew, not seen as a young lady. Makes her a little unsecure on that score. When she gets a chance to be pretty and popular, she's gonna take it. Being able to go to the ball is the fulfilment of a sort of 'princess dream' Her dress, and the music, is her way of remembering all the things that she puts away for her role as ship's mechanic.

Yes, and there's sensualism in it too. When she's at the party talking about her dress, she says "I saw the ruffles and just couldn't help myself" and has to pet the ruffles. Plus I bet the whole thing makes a nice wooshy rustling sound, and you can see it swaying all over as she walks. She'd be fond of it for these reasons too, not simply memory.

>> a bowl of strawberries infront of her and she didn't take one. <<

Only one? That would be out of character.

A lot of you seem to be trying the 'she's non-puritanical about sex because she's a sensualist' tactic, and you're coming up with all kinds of good evidence that she's a sensualist. I'm not arguing against that; she is. Likes to experience everything to the full. What I'm arguing is that this doesn't make her promiscuous. The word 'sensualist' can mean that the person simply likes to feel/hear/taste/smell things, wants to, will take any oppourtunity to do so. For example, somebody that likes to wear silk a lot, for no other reason than the softness of it against their skin; they like the sense of it. There are other definitions, including one with a sexual component.

Seems to me that we need to all agree on one definition of the word.

Oh I know that she was drunk but thats neither here nor there. sensualist

\Sen"su*al*ist\, n. [CF. F. sensualiste.] 1. One who is sensual; one given to the indulgence of the appetites or senses as the means of happiness.

2. One who holds to the doctrine of sensualism.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

Given the above deffinition, I think that my argument (and that of 'lot of us') that you were referning to is perfectly valid. Kaylee likes nice things. She likes to taste, hear, and feel nice things and so she likes sex and food and music, none of which can be seen to be out of character. That doesn't make her promiscuous at all, sensualist doesn't have to refer to sex, but in Kaylees case it does.

Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained.
-William Blake

TAMFAMFAN

Friday, January 23, 2004 1:55 PM

I see Kaylee as a sensualist. Her time with Hester, or Pester, or whatever his gorram name was in the engine room, seems that she can go from having fun doing one thing (sex, duh) to another enjoyable thing (for her, talking engines and fixing things).
Problem is, she's on a ship with a beautiful warrior woman and a trained Companion, and it shows that she's a bit self concious. She seems to like being reassured that she's pretty, even though at times, she should realize not to press the issue (i.e. with Simon in the Message).

TAMFAMFAN

Friday, January 23, 2004 1:58 PM

I see Kaylee as a sensualist. Her time with Hester, or Pester, or whatever his gorram name was in the engine room, seems that she can go from having fun doing one thing (sex, duh) to another enjoyable thing (for her, talking engines and fixing things).
Problem is, she's on a ship with a beautiful warrior woman and a trained Companion, and it shows that she's a bit self concious. She seems to like being reassured that she's pretty, even though at times, she should realize not to press the issue (i.e. with Simon in the Message).

SHINY

Friday, January 23, 2004 3:18 PM

I think we should be looking not at the definition of sensual(ist), but of promiscuous:

1 : composed of all sorts of persons or things
2 : not restricted to one class, sort, or person : INDISCRIMINATE
3 : not restricted to one sexual partner
4 : CASUAL, IRREGULAR

I think those who are 'defending' Kaylee's character are reacting to the negative connotations of the word, and the negative associations society places on 'casual' or 'indiscriminate' sex. However, if you do believe in (or at least feel Kaylee believes in) a free, 'non-puritanical' view of sex as just another wonderful sensation to experience, then the word 'promiscuous' really loses its bite -- being promiscuous is like being a virgin, just another state of being as Inara would say. Calling Kaylee promiscuous is only an insult when viewed through the prism of today's societal values (at least in America...and China, and most countries). I think Kaylee is promiscuous in the strict denotation as she does not or at least has not limited herself to one sexual partner, I just don't attach any stigma to it, nor do I think she or most others on their ship (possibly in their 'verse) do either.

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

HKCAVALIER

Friday, January 23, 2004 4:54 PM

I was just talking to my girlfriend the other day about how satisfying it was that Kaylee is presented as both emotionally innocent and sexual. Quite an accomplishment for network tv. The show as a whole seems to be dominated by an earthy, intuitive, impulsive spirit that is at odds with the usual cool, calculating, logical, intelectual bent of sci-fi. Sexuality in sci-fi (if it's allowed at all) is almost always stigmatized or pathologized in some way. And frankly sexual females are so often disruptive if not downright evil.

It's obvious to me that Kaylee never learned that sex was something to be ashamed of or necessarily even questioned. Yeah, I think she likes sex the way she likes strawberries.

I don't think that here engine room sex scene with the surfer dude in any way implies that she is (or was) promiscuous. He's the only guy we've seen Kaylee have sex with ever. Just because she's comfortable having sex in a semi-public place don't make her promiscuous. Just because she likes the smell and the sound and the feel of machinery don't make her promiscuous. Certainly she wasn't all head over heals in love with Surfer Dude, but she wasn't gonna pass up having some good sex, or be embarrassed if somebody comes along.

She's pretty smitten with Simon, so her sexuality is pretty wrapped up in him at the moment and she's frustraited 'cause he's so standoffish. Nowhere is her innocent sexuality more obvious to me than in her conversations with Simon on the subject. We all know what his problem is, but sweet little sensual Kaylee is genuinely stumped.

Oh, and it's not at all hypocritical in my view for Inara to present herself as nonpuritanical about sex and then ball her eyes out in private over Mal. Inara is, as far as I can see, utterly and hopelessly in love with Mal Reynolds and what she wants most in the world is to have 10,000 of his babies and she can't, not because God thinks sex is dirty but for her own very personal reasons--probably to do with her personal beliefs being at odds with Mal's, Mal's selfdestructiveness and the mysterious mission that brings her to Serenity in the first place.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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