Is Science Fiction inherently anti-establishment?
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Saturday, April 19, 2008 17:10
VIEWED: 5811
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Quote:Really? I kinda saw it as poking at it for where it inevitably goes in times of war...the movie, at least.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Starship Troopers totally pro-establishment.
And Dark Angel was LOADED with anti-E...I'm just goin' through again now, and the sneering and resentment of a system that that thought so highly of itself, yet allowed itself to be taken down so easily and replaced by near-fascist martial law, the endless Republican/Reagan jokes, the whole Transgenic/prejudice thing, even pokes at the Liberal mentality- they all scream it to me.
The Anti-Chrisisall
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Quote:Well, the movie dumbed down many things. Movies do that, but if you read the book, you’d see that was all supposed to be taken literally.
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Really? I kinda saw it as poking at it for where it inevitably goes in times of war...the movie, at least.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Starship Troopers totally pro-establishment.
Quote:I didn’t say the anti-establishment theme wasn’t there, but it was a post-apocalyptic theme. It’s not the same thing.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
And Dark Angel was LOADED with anti-E...I'm just goin' through again now, and the sneering and resentment of a system that that thought so highly of itself, yet allowed itself to be taken down so easily and replaced by near-fascist martial law, the endless Republican/Reagan jokes, the whole Transgenic/prejudice thing, even pokes at the Liberal mentality- they all scream it to me.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Well, the main strength of sci-fi as a genre is that it can broach subjects that the mainstream media isn't allowed to touch (sexism, racism, gender politics, religion, terrorism, drugs, etc).
Similarly, science fiction writers tend to be grown-up geeks. The "Establishment" is generally made up of the people who beat us up, stuffed us into lockers, and stole all the girls (or guys, whichever) in high school. It makes sense that we'd lash out against it/them.
This doesn't necessarily mean that all (or even most) sci-fi is trying to blatantly undermine "our" values (as some ultra-Conservatives have accused it of doing). Often it just means that sci-fi is mainly interested in the "liminal" areas where the Rules don't always apply.
Often, it presents a "better" establishment (as in Star Trek [an intellectual meritocracy, ruled by the virtues of compassion, mercy, nobility, and intelligence --four of the most hated concepts in the modern world], Starship Troopers [which was initially a vehicle for Heinlein's own political ideals --not unlike a post-modern retelling of Macchiavelli's The Prince], or Stargate [a military conspiracy that is neither corrupt nor malevolent --that is, in fact, exactly what the military/industrial complex as a whole should be]).
It's the geeks and nerds that get to grow up to be James Kirk, John Crichton, or Daniel Jackson.
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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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Quote:Or John Sheppard...
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
It's the geeks and nerds that get to grow up to be James Kirk, John Crichton, or Daniel Jackson.
Shepisall
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erm, no. But Sci-fi is a reflection of the times and pressures, the original Star Trek was quite progressive having a female (and black too!) bridge officer (in fact the female officer used to be the first officer in the pilot, the studio didn't like that). It had a Russian bridge officer because of the cold war, it's packed full of social commentary on the sixties. You may be able to find a lot of anti-establishment sentiment in sci-fi, because there is always something the establishment is currently doing that requires comment.
But integral? Not at all, perhaps American made TV, but American made TV is aimed at an American audience, an audience that largely thrives on distrust of the government ;). You have filters of your own chris, I don't see any particular anti-establishment leanings in the Terminator universe, for instance. Folly with technology, which is perhaps more a cold war M.A.D. commentary, but nothing specific to the establishment.
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Quote:Err, Starship Troopers? Starship Troopers was a tacit fascist state, controlled through careful pruning of the electorate. It presented a military dictatorship, with a facade of democracy, I don't characterise that as "better" either in intent or design, it's a warning.
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Often, it presents a "better" establishment (as in Star Trek [an intellectual meritocracy, ruled by the virtues of compassion, mercy, nobility, and intelligence --four of the most hated concepts in the modern world], Starship Troopers [which was initially a vehicle for Heinlein's own political ideals --not unlike a post-modern retelling of Macchiavelli's The Prince], or Stargate [a military conspiracy that is neither corrupt nor malevolent --that is, in fact, exactly what the military/industrial complex as a whole should be]).
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:There’s no warning. The fascist ideology is not presented in Starship Troopers as a dystopic society, but indeed as a “better“ society. You may not agree that this would be the case, but that is certainly the intent in the story.
Originally posted by citizen:
Err, Starship Troopers? Starship Troopers was a tacit fascist state, controlled through careful pruning of the electorate. It presented a military dictatorship, with a facade of democracy, I don't characterise that as "better" either in intent or design, it's a warning.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:I don't think its presented as better, the characters think it's better, but go ask a Gestapo official what he thinks of nazism.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
There’s no warning. The fascist ideology is not presented in Starship Troopers as a dystopic society, but indeed as a “better“ society. You may not agree that this would be the case, but that is certainly the intent in the story.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:Well, the 'Establishment' in the movies embraced the creation of Skynet- isn't that a slam on the computer-dependent culture we have?
Originally posted by citizen:
You have filters of your own chris, I don't see any particular anti-establishment leanings in the Terminator universe, for instance.
Computers are evil Chrisisall
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Quote:First of all, I don’t really think you understand the book. The fascist ideology presented in Starship Troopers is nothing like Nazism or for that matter like Italian or Spanish Fascism. It may technically be a form of fascism, but it is not a diastopic society. Now one can argue that such a society is impossible, but there is no doubt that it is being presented in Starship Troopers as a “better” society.
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:I don't think its presented as better, the characters think it's better, but go ask a Gestapo official what he thinks of nazism.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
There’s no warning. The fascist ideology is not presented in Starship Troopers as a dystopic society, but indeed as a “better“ society. You may not agree that this would be the case, but that is certainly the intent in the story.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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