Kevin Smith vs. Joss Whedon
POSTED BY: reginaroadie
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 20:46
VIEWED: 10934
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Hey All
I need your guys' help on something.
A buddy of mine has decided to create a film and music website that has movie reviews, essays, podcasts and articles written by people in Regina and with a Regina slant. And he's asked me to be one of the contributors to the site. Naturally I said yes, and I've actually come up with a few ideas for some essays last night. One has to do with KNOCKED UP and how it's an equal opportunist love story. The other is a sort of "compare and contrast" type essay about Kevin Smith and Joss Whedon. Specifically, I want to write about how their spiritual beliefs tie into their work. How Joss' atheism influences, and arguably hinders, BUFFY while Kevin's devout belief in Christianity makes DOGMA and to a lesser degree REAPER a sort of parallel universe version of BUFFY and if Kevin's belief in God and Christ produces an arguably stronger work.
I'm not trying to start a flame war here. I'm just saying that there may be some people here who like both Kevin and Joss and can see the same weird parallels between BUFFY and DOGMA/REAPER and would like to discuss them.
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"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."
Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack
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An interesting idea. How are you going to define "stronger"? Stronger in a philosophical sense? Stronger in that one provides more moving scenes and an emotional response based on a portrayal of humanity that an audience can relate to? I haven't seen Reaper, but while I found Dogma to have interesting ideas about God and challenged/refined my own conceptions of God, I don't remember being emotionally moved by the story or attached to the characters compared to characters in the Buffyverse/Firefly verse. I think it may be hard to compare in some ways because Buffy had several seasons to develop ideas and get us attached to stories and characters whereas Dogma is just one movie.
From a philosphical standpoint, Whedon still has a concept of good and evil and moral ambiguity that I can agree with. I did not agree with Dogma's portrayal of God being somehow weakened or limited by an external agent without His consent (I'm thinking of how they couldn't seem to progress until the guy in the coma died. I might be misremembering, but I thought he was God before Alannis appeared). While Joss's atheism may make it hard for him to have the philosophical underpinings to declare something as "good" or "evil" in real life, that doesn't really get in the way of his portrayal of good and evil in his shows and my interpretation of it according to my own beliefs. I guess what I'm wondering is, how do you define one work as "stronger" than another, when the interpretation of the work is based on an individual viewer, who views the work through his own philosphical glasses?
I have to say, the end of Season 4 of Angel in which Angel has to decide whether the population having free will with all the evil that comes with it is more desirable than people being enslaved into acting good was very intriguing to me and definitely rivals any of the ideas that Dogma might have addressed. In my mind, (spoilers ahead -- beware!) Angel made the same decision as God did, deciding that allowing beings to have free will (even if they then could choose to do evil) was more desirable than creating beings who were under compulsion to do only good. To me, this helped me gain a better understanding of the age old question of why God allows suffering. So Joss, the atheist/agnostic, contributed to my own faith system.
Well, that's my take, for what its worth... Good luck on your project.
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Well, one of the points that I want to make is that it always bugged me in BUFFY that you had a Hellmouth and all these demons and monsters and references to thousands of "Hell dimensions", but there was very little on the other side. You had a vague reference to a "heaven dimension" in season 6 and in Season 7 when the vampire of an old classmate asking Buffy if God exists, she says "The jury's still out.", not to mention Caleb as the stereotypical "evil sexist preacher". And then on ANGEL, the higher beings had worse make-up than the vampires and Cordelia's ascension to another level was just an act so that she could give birth to Jasmine and destroy the world. Personally, I would think that being promoted to a higher level of being would be a good thing, but apparently not.
I just think that for a show that had so many demons and hellspawn and all that, that they could have had at least one episode or a plotline that dealt with the other side. That had real angels and not a pretty boy vampire with that name. And that there was a true balance of good and evil, instead of evil and superpowered mortals that keep things at bay.
In contrast to Kevin Smith, two of Kevin's contemporaries (Quentin Tarantino and Robert Rodriguez) actually address this balance in FROM DUSK TILL DAWN. Near the end of the film, when they're stocking up on their final assault on the vampires, the George Clooney character confronts the Harvey Keitel character over his loss of faith and that they need his influence as a holy man now more than ever. And George tells him that up until now, he too didn't believe in God. But now that he's seen all these vampires and creatures from Hell, he now believes in God because there has to be something to balance that out.
It just amazes me that as enlightened and progressive as Joss is, that because of his atheism,he would never take into consideration the possibility that there could be a balance within the Buffy universe. That for a rich and complex mythology, that he's intentionally leaving out a major component to that mythology.
Kevin Smith, on the other hand, actually addresses this balance between Heaven and Hell and good and evil within DOGMA. One of my favorite deleted scenes in DOGMA was Azarel's monologue about the nature of Hell and how it was once nothing more than the abscene of God and that human with their pain and suffering and decay were the ones that actually made it worse. It gets into a much more complex view of Heaven and Hell and spirituality than one would perceive. It's on the same level as Milton and C.S. Lewis. And the character arc of Bethany and her journey of faith is touching.
And with REAPER, even though he only directed the pilot, he's still on as a consultant, and his influence can still be felt long after the pilot. Not only with the friendship between Sam, Sock and Ben, but also the fact that it does address both sides of the equation. The Devil says in the pilot "I know how it all ends. God wins." and Ben throughout the series brings up various theological ideas and influences, one of which is his grandma that sensed that even though Sam's doing this for the Devil, that there is something slightly holy in all this. Plus, the occasional parallels between this and BUFFY (demons see Halloween as a day off, the woman that played Harmony guested as a demon) only reinforces the whole "alternate version of BUFFY" that I'm working off of.
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"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."
Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack
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Judging from your response, your essays should be great reads.
Okay, so when you say "stronger", you possibly are meaning that the spirituality as portrayed in Kevin Smith's worlds seems to be more multi-faceted -- that is expressing a broader range of (generally Judeo-Christian) spiritual experiences, characters, beliefs, etc. in a deeper and more balanced way than Joss's vision. Or something like that...
I agree with your points about how Whedon's portrayal of the good side is much weaker and more limited. As you said, he does leave out an important perspective, and it may very well be his atheism/agnosticism that blocks him from wanting to flesh out what a good, all powerful entity would look like, since it isn't interesting to him. (Or it might be that his shows thrive on conflict and that the knowledge that a good, all powerful entity is going to win in the end sort of takes the fun and mystery out of the conflict). Anyways, in the Whedon world, hope seems to be found less in a good God and more in powerful humans/humanoids to defeat the powers of evil. In contrast, a Christian perspective would recognize that mankind is sinful, it is not able to save itself, and that only God can save it from the powers of evil. Whedon's view is limited in that it focuses on the human struggle against evil and not the ultimate power of goodness in the universe. It makes for great entertainment, but I agree that it is lacking that cosmic sense of purpose that for me is hard to find without invoking some greater power of good. His perspective of God/Powers That Be reminds me of the beginning chapters of Job, when God sits back, seemingly distant, uncaring and uninterfering, and allows Satan to torment Job (except that in Whedon's world, Job would have some tools to physically fight back). But in Whedon's world, you never get to the end chapters of Job, where God finally reveals himself and his ultimate power over the universe, and Job realizes his place in the universe and is content.
That being said, the character of Sheppard in Firefly was an interesting addition for Joss and combatted the negative stereotype of Caleb in Buffy. Had Firefly continued, perhaps interactions with Sheppard might have balanced things out and led to interesting forays into the spiritual.
That's enough rambling for now. I think you've got some pretty great ideas to express.
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Good points all; but I just have to state my feelings about Book's character in the show. I really liked him, but as a Christian and especially as some sort of Shepard, he seemed very poorly fleshed out.
Heck, I think if it weren't for the fact that there was something in his past that shows that he wasn't always this way, I'd doubt he actually was a holy man to be honest. Being afraid of praying for Mal because Mal wouldn't like it? Or thinking he's on the wrong kind of ship and keeping the wrong company and the Buddhist has to explain that's where he's needed? I guess that can make sense, but it would seem to me that a Pastor/Priest/Shepard/Rabbi/Imam would have figured that kind of thing out for himself.
I also thought (at first) that the who pacifist thing was just another one of those misconceptions about Christianity, though I recalled that many Christians do believe in a pretty strict non-violence and I was allowing my personal bias to skip over that.
Select to view spoiler:
Though when Book dies I thought that line about it being "Unchristian" of him was a bit of this again...I doubt that too many Christians take pacifism that far as to refuse to defend themselves, their family, friends, or just innocents...but that's just my bias again
Edit: I think another thing that would have been interesting if Firefly had continued would be to see what prolonged exposure of Book and Mal would have done to each other. If Mal would ever regain his faith in God or idealism, or what how Book might have changed.
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There's a widow in sleepy Chester
Who weeps for her only son;
There's a grave on the Pabeng River,
A grave that the Burmans shun;
And there's Subadar Prag Tewarri
Who tells how the work was done.
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That's such an interesting take on the story of Gob. I always took it as an example of faith. Satan challenges God by saying "He only praises you because of all the good stuff you've given him. If you were to take it all away, he'd denounce you." And so to put that theory to the test, God takes away his livestock, his family and makes him incredibly sick, but Gob never once says "Fuck You, God." And so because of his faith, he was rewarded tenfold by being cured and having an even bigger family and more livestock and wealth.
When I do say "stronger" I mean exactly that. And all the points you've made are incredibly well thought out. I guess if you boil it down, Kevin thinks that the spiritual cavalry can come, whereas Joss thinks that we're cut off and left to fend for ourselves, which isn't a bad message per se. The themes of empowerment and persevering in the face of hopelessness are great stuff that makes his stuff thematically rich and emotionally powerful. I just think that there is a slight bias and a willingful ignorance to a higher spiritual self that slightly hinders Joss's overall work.
On a bit of a side note, one of my favorite scenes between an atheist and a believer is in the opening half hour of THE THIN RED LINE, between Sean Penn and Jim Cavizel. The Jim Cavizel character in the beginning of the movie had gone AWOL and was on a spiritual journey in the Phillipines and hanging out with the natives of that area and felt like it was heaven on earth. Sean tells him "In this world, a man, himself...is nothing. And there ain't no world, but this one." Jim just replies, "You're wrong there Topp. I've seen another world. Maybe it was just my imagination." And Sean ends it with "Well then you've seen things I never will." I always found that moment so powerful since either side has their beliefs, but they respect each other's opinions and their doubts over it.
If I had the opportunity to write a stand-alone issue of BUFFY SEASON 8 comic, I would have done a story similar to that. Where one of the Slayer trainees is a devout learner of not just Christianity, but other religions around the world and actually sees her powers and what they're doing as a holy mission. Maybe she does a cross gesture or mutters something in Hebrew or Arabic before s raid. And there'd be a debate between her and other atheist Slayers and maybe even Buffy herself over whether there is indeed anything holy about what they're doing. And at the end she would say something along the lines of "Even if there isn't a big shiny prize at the end of the day, I still believe in it and what it represents." There's be a balance. Only difference is that Buffy believes in herself while she believes in a higher order.
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"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."
Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack
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It should be noted however that in the Jossverse --especially after Angel started-- demons aren't rendered so much as "Evil" as predatory and opportunistic.
There are benevolent demons, even disregarding Angel & Spike; remember Lorne, Clem, and Doyle (well, half-demon, but you get the idea). There's even the MFFG (that the First Evil tries to take credit for)
Arguably, it's not a matter of needing to balance anything out; Joss' demons show as much moral range as humans. This itself is telling, since Joss has to approach it like that, otherwise he runs into the quandry of trying to define Evil without nailing down a counterpoint for Good.
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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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I am one of the peeps who likes and admires both Joss and Kevin for various reasons. And yes I think their beliefs play a part in their work to whatever degree.
There have been some fanatastic points above but I have to disagree about one of the points made about Buffy/Angel, in that there should be some sort of balance. Whilst both shows used the term 'hell' in various ways, I never saw that it meant the actual supposed Hell where the Devil/Satan resides. Just in the same way that I never saw the PTB as anything to do with God or Heaven. To me they were just what was seen or described, alternate dimensions. Not something actually based on any belief system. If that sounds right?
By this thought I don't see why there has to be a balance between good and evil in Joss's work. One of the things I picked up on, and always assumed, was that evil far outweighed the good in Joss's world, but the good still went in for the fight anyway. This is particularly well referenced in Buffy when she accepts her destiny as a slayer and Angel when he regains his sense of purpose or the final moments of the series. Impossible odds but they do it anyway.
To say there should be some kind of balance is to apply 'real world' themes to a work of fiction. But then again, if you are a believer in God and the Devil etc, where does it say that there are roughly as many angels of God as demons of the Devil?
Although some of my theory can be blown apart by the fact that vampires fear crosses, which pertain to some kind of higher power, but again it's never stated that it's God (although it may be another god).
Just my opinion.
"I don't believe in suicide, but if you'd like to try it it might cheer me up to watch."
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OK, so maybe demons can be as morally complex as humans. But if there was The First, most supreme being of evil, then where's The First, most supreme being of good? There HAS to be that balance. Otherwise, The First would just be the first being in existence. Just a blank, sentient being.
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"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."
Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack
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Well I certainly agree with the idea of Job as a story of faith. But God does step back and allow Satan to torment Job. However, God specifies that Satan can only torment Job up to a certain point -- he isn't allowed to kill Job. (Satan gets some free reign over humanity but is still on a leash). From Job's perspective, he is being punished for no reason and he wonders why it is happening. He also questions what God is doing and maintains his own innocence, even going so far as to question God's justice. So, yes, it is a story of faith, but that faith isn't the typical faith of someone simply maintaining the ability to praise God and stay happy in spite of their woes. Job complains a lot, gets hounded by unsupportive or theologically errant friends, gets chastised by God, gets to experience God in a huge way, gets a personal lecture about the vastness of creation, responds with humility and finally gets rewarded by God with material things -- though I think he was already pretty content with just the experience of having an audience with God. I think that just being reminded that God is big and that God is personal was enough for him. That is what he truly needed to be fulfilled -- not more herds and children. (But he got those anyway).
Well, sorry for the tangent about Job. As you were. Where will your articles/essays appear when they are complete?
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