Simon - Give the Doc a break.

POSTED BY: TheSomnambulist
UPDATED: Saturday, January 6, 2007 22:09
VIEWED: 3991
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Simon I think is a little hard done by in the show.

Anyone else notice that if he failed to give Kaylee a compliment or he looked beyond her feelings for him, he was in some way a baffoon, or insensitive. As though:
"She likes you fella, LIKE her back..."

But y'know what if the roles where reversed nobody would be thinking that of Kaylee.

When I had crushes on girls at school and they paid me no attention I don't remember anybody going up to one of them and saying how insensitive they were! On the contrary I remember being told I didn't stand a chance and to give-up.

It's almost as though because Kaylee liked Simon he HAD to like her also.

Now Kaylee is CUTE no doubt, but the poor fella had a sick sister to look after. His mind was elsewhere. He didn't have time for any of that.

So my sympathies go to Simon.

Now when I re-watch the show I feel that Kaylee is more of a pest than anything, and really how would he know her feelings where genuine - they're alone in space and frankly any new blood that came along would look good to her. Note THE MESSAGE in fact that dood was dead and she liked him. I mean really!

Any thoughts?

TheSomnambulist


www.cirqus.com

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It's a pattern writters know. Shows do well if there's a romantic tease in them. This was also the case with Firefly.Joss and company used the romantic uneasiness of Inara and Mal with Serenity as being Mal's unforgiving g/f.

There was the strong m/f relationship of Zoey and Wash that shows that some couplings can work out well.
Then there's Simon and Kaylee ( The anti-relationship) The dark side of the mirror with River in the middle. Mal and Inara's uncomfortable scenes together could be matched by Simon and Kaylee's with the writters playing with the S/K scripts just to see where it would go. Mal/Inara is a silent romance that would have gone on for a long time and maybe never happened at all.

It's a little funny in the Message eps (I think) where S/K are in the ships corridor about a space monkey's breath from kissing.Then Preacher Book shows up. Here is a man that joins ppl together, yet in this case he scares them apart.

Z

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I'm kind of in the same boat when ti comes to Kaylee and SImon in the series. I love them as a couple, pretty much all my fanfics center around Simon more or less because he's the one character that I identify with the most, and I hope that in the future, when I make my first real professional movie, Jewel and Sean arn't too expensive so that I can reunite them as my leads (But not have them essentially reprise their characters. If anything, I'd like them to reverse roles and have him be all bubbly and energetic and her be down to earth and repressed).

But when I actually see the series, one thing that I notice is that Kaylee seems to be a bit oversensitive when it comes to Simon. Obviously Simon has a lot going on at this point in his life, and a girlfriend isn't necessarily on his mind. It's only over time that he really develops any feelings for Kaylee. And like any guy in the world, when he gets said feeling for girl he likes, he has a hard time expressing them. But the stuff he said to her that made her all angry and stuff is stuff open to misinterpretation. Like in "Jaynestown" when he says "I would never..." It's "I would never violate your mechanic, Captain." Not "I wouldn't with her, she's not my type." And in "The Message", the date a the beginning was him trying to be romantic and say, "You're the only girl in the verse to me." but mangling the delivery of that line, which is why it's best to repeat these kinds of things in your head before actually saying them.

But at these moments, Kaylee (being the incredibly emotional person she is) just throws a hissyfit and turns away before he has a chance to explain himself. It's at this moment, as well as in "Shindig" when Mal makes the "sheep walking on it's hind legs" comment that it's clear that Kaylee is really thin skinned and overly emotional. And an overemotional gal is just as much a turn-off as a guy who doesn't know how to say the right thing to a gal at the right time.

This was something that I actually dealt with in my stories. That in four years, Kaylee learned how to not be overly emotional and to actually confront Simon when he does say the wrong thing. Like in Chapter 2 of YCGHA, when he erupts at her right after he's found out Regan is dying of leukemia, instead of turning around and crying (which given that she's 4 1/2 months pregnant at the time for once understandable), she actually toughens up and says that she has dealt with parental alienation before and that it's somethign that you can deal with.

And I think in turn, if FIREFLY was still on the air, that Joss would hae transformed Kaylee a bit. That she retain her goodness, but not be overly emotional. That she toughen up a bit and be more of an actual adult.

But I was glad that by the end, which in my mind is "Objects in Space", they had developed to the point that they had gotten past these barriers and that they could behave like a normal couple. And in the BDM, while there was that awkwardness to them, it is of course resolved with him finally saying the right thing at the right time.

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"Wait a minute, you're not Santa! You're not even robots!! How dare you lie in front of Jesus!!!"

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It's not just writing, human relationship politics are spectacularly lopsided, with men biased against from the get-go.

When a girl is interested in a guy, it's considered a special circumstance, and the guy is socially obligated to make a move (I don't mean "make the first move," but he has to respond in some way --for a guy to ignore a woman's affections is verboten).

When a guy is interested in a girl. . . well, it's nothing special.

Women are allowed to play hard-to-get, but guys are expected to jump on any bit of female flesh that smiles at them.

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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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But, he did like her. He was also socially inept when it came to girls. What's the problem?


Also, if she saw Simon of not reciprocating her advances, or messing up constantly, then of course she'll take a look at someone else that might cross her path. Hell, how many times have you given a look at someone as you walked about? This combined with her being really outgoing is a recipe for flirtation. And flirtation does not equal her interested in inviting the guy into her bed btw. How many women do you know that are like that?

Just think of her as having a poor brain filter when it comes to these things i.e. "Have good sex!" - Kaylee to Inara


And I really don't think that she liked the dead guy. Appreciated his looks, profound respect for the dead, yes. Liked him liked him, no.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

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But, he did like her. He was also socially inept when it came to girls. What's the problem?

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That is the problem. Don't you think that's jumping the gun a little. I mean he wasn't great with communicating to Kaylee, I grant you that, but that doesn't make him socially inept. Jayne on the other hand is, as witnessed here:

"Hell Kaylee just wishes you was a gynaecologist"

That uttered with others' sat at the dinner table, now that is someone who is socially inept.

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Also, if she saw Simon of not reciprocating her advances, or messing up constantly, then of course she'll take a look at someone else that might cross her path.

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Granted she is of course going to look out for other suitors, however her reactions when Simon doesn't reciprocate in her favour tend , to my mind, be a little hostile and overly sensitive.

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Hell, how many times have you given a look at someone as you walked about?

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...er well several, but I don't see what that has to do with anything...

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This combined with her being really outgoing is a recipe for flirtation. And flirtation does not equal her interested in inviting the guy into her bed btw.

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Of course not. I hope you don't think I was implying such a thing. Not my style. However it is interesting that in The MESSAGE Kaylee does indeed take Tracy back to her bunk and they are sat on her bed as the ship is swaying this way and that.

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How many women do you know that are like that?

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There's a question... Well in all honesty. More than I wish to mention I'm afraid. But that's an altogether different story and should be told at a different time.

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Just think of her as having a poor brain filter when it comes to these things i.e. "Have good sex!" - Kaylee to Inara

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Indeed. Although I thought that more ironic. But it's a good point and maybe the crux (strange word, don't think I've ever written that out before...Crux... Hmmm anyway). Yes I think that's my point. Kaylee and Simon are two very different people, socially I mean, and I think Simons manner is just far more reserved and dare I say it, chivalrous. Kaylee is maybe too keen, and that's perhaps something that Simon has had little contact with. Thus he appears like a boob, as River says, but really it isn't something that they should all be jumping down his throat at. No?

As with Kaylee in SHINDIG when she is laughed at by the snobbish girls, it's as a course of her being in the wrong environment. She isn't inept socially, just a fish out of water. This is Simon's predicament on the ship. He is in the wrong environment given his upbringing.

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And I really don't think that she liked the dead guy. Appreciated his looks, profound respect for the dead, yes. Liked him liked him, no.

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Don't you? I did. I thought that the very point. I thought that Tracy (in dead guise) was attractive to her. OK not AS a dead guy, but she could see, with the audio, that Tracy alive could be someone she could connect with.

Just my thought...

The
Somnambulist


www.cirqus.com

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But, I don't want to give either one of them a break. Simon's a nice character (when he's not around Kaylee), and Kaylee's a nice character (when she's not around Simon); together, they both irritate me. I shake my fist at them!


Rules on voting here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=22892

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

That is the problem. Don't you think that's jumping the gun a little. I mean he wasn't great with communicating to Kaylee, I grant you that, but that doesn't make him socially inept. Jayne on the other hand is, as witnessed here:

"Hell Kaylee just wishes you was a gynaecologist"

That uttered with others' sat at the dinner table, now that is someone who is socially inept.

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Well, there is more than one way to be socially inept. Jayne is socially inept in one way (crude), whereas Simon is socially inept in a completely different way (stiff with an inability to talk to girls).

Just because someone isn't a total extreme with regards to being socially inept, does not make them not socially inept.

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

Granted she is of course going to look out for other suitors, however her reactions when Simon doesn't reciprocate in her favour tend , to my mind, be a little hostile and overly sensitive.

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You've talked to young women, right?

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

...er well several, but I don't see what that has to do with anything...

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My point is that everyone takes a look, some talk and flirt as well and more adventurous spirits will go a little farther. I would put Kaylee between the 2nd and 3rd.

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

Of course not. I hope you don't think I was implying such a thing. Not my style. However it is interesting that in The MESSAGE Kaylee does indeed take Tracy back to her bunk and they are sat on her bed as the ship is swaying this way and that.

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I wouldn't say that she took him back to her bunk. They were told to go below and it just so happened that they went to her bunk. It probably had as much to do with the fact that it was right there as with the imminent danger.

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

There's a question... Well in all honesty. More than I wish to mention I'm afraid. But that's an altogether different story and should be told at a different time.

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My point was that she is a certain type of person and that certain type of person isn't rare. I was also making reference to that certain type of person so that we both know what type of person we're talking about (or similarly speaking). Hm... perhaps that was hard to follow

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

Indeed. Although I thought that more ironic. But it's a good point and maybe the crux (strange word, don't think I've ever written that out before...Crux... Hmmm anyway). Yes I think that's my point. Kaylee and Simon are two very different people, socially I mean, and I think Simons manner is just far more reserved and dare I say it, chivalrous. Kaylee is maybe too keen, and that's perhaps something that Simon has had little contact with. Thus he appears like a boob, as River says, but really it isn't something that they should all be jumping down his throat at. No?

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I don't think that it was ironic. More along the lines that the writer wanted to make a very good distinction between Kaylee's behaviour and what Simon finds acceptable (remember his reaction).

I would agree that they shouldn't be jumping down his throat if it weren't for the specific comments that he has made. Remember his oh so romanic comment that he's attracted to her because she's the only available woman? In that scene he certainly was a boob.

For that matter, remember what Zoe said to him after he admitted that he could talk to girls? To paraphrase, "Why, is there someone you're good at talking to?"

I would also say that Kaylee, from how she became the ships mechanic, is far more sexually promiscuous than Simon. Well, that's putting it lightly

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

As with Kaylee in SHINDIG when she is laughed at by the snobbish girls, it's as a course of her being

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