Mandatory Vaccinations (Part 2)
POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 21:57
VIEWED: 12509
PAGE 14 of 16
CTS -
Quote:I did copy, and paste a long, long list of quotes. You can't even keep your own story straight. Get a brain.
PROVE where I have ever said vaccines are more dangerous than the disease. Copy and paste please.
Quote:It's not the same disease. It doesn't have the same cause, OR transmission, OR symptoms OR prognosis (death rate). What would YOU rather face - a person with mokey pox, knowing you'll never catch it from them; - or a person with smallpox, knowing you could?
The myth of eradication refers to the fact that the same clinical disease as smallpox is still walking around.
Oh, and if you have to keep lying to make your point, maybe you need to re-examine how much you value your personal honesty.
Quote:You mean you didn't interfere. Wow. That's mighty big of you. And I'm curious. You say she's anti-vax. Did SHE go around and campaign to make others not vaccinate? Does she want vax's to be illegal? Is she really anti-vax?? (You know, by YOUR definition.)
I did not try to talk her out of it (vax), or shove anti-vaccine literature down her throat, or make her feel bad about the decision in anyway. I am NOT anti-vaccine. That's the last time I am going to say that.
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CTS has changed position more than once.
It started out as: since I'm in my corner hurting no one why can't I just do my own thing?
It quickly veered to: ALL the scientists (except the few I agree with) do bad science; they don't provide absolute 100% certainty; and no matter what science you show me I'll tell you how it's wrong.
Then it went completely off the rails: polio vaccines never did work and neither did smallpox vaccines.
Yowza. Talk about unhinged and divorced from reality.
CTS,
Telling people that polio and smallpox vaccines don't work will be a hard sell to all but the most gullible. Even illiterate Nigerians know better.
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Quote:As I said before, homeschooling is an option for those who can afford it, just like fluorine removal is an option for those who can afford it. Single working parents cannot afford to homeschool, and that is a huge segment of our population, who is not afforded a choice. And although it is easy in some states, but it not easy in many other states.
Originally posted by SignyM:
And likewise, there is no requirement that your children MUST be in school, because homeschooling is always an option and in most states it's very easy to do.
Like I said before, I would have far, far fewer objections if there were no compulsory schooling laws.
I have answered all your arguments before. At this point, I would be prefacing all my answers with "as I said before," and I suspect you would be too. So as far as I'm concerned, I've said mine and you've said yours, and we know we aren't ever going to agree.
Merry Christmas!
(And Rue, I cut you some slack because Citizen's arguments persuaded me to be a bit more lenient. But you are back to insults, outright lies, and making groundless accusations that have nothing to do with the quotations you posted. They sound like the rantings of a crazy man to me, and I frankly have no more idea how to respond anymore than I would to someone who says, "The aluminum moon is mad and full of repentant joy." Yeah, whatever. You and I are done. Really. My last words to you: Merry Christmas, dude.)
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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"I wish to become a teacher of the Truth."
"Are you prepared to be ridiculed, ignored and starving till you are forty-five?"
"I am. But tell me: What will happen after I am forty-five?"
"You will have grown accustomed to it."
--Anthony de Mello, S.J.
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CTS,
I KNOW you don't have any biology, medicine, immunology, biochemistry etc background. This forum is not a place where you'll be able get a grounding at even a HS level. And to add to that, you hold your ignorance adamantly. How you have the - stupidity - for lack of a nicer word, to hold those sciences in such great contempt when you know so little borders on the insane.
This is the real world which runs by cause and effect. Plugging your ears and saying NAH NAH NAH I can't hear you will not change it one whit. I hope you aren't so divorced from reality that you do something really stupid to yourself, or worse, your children. Or maybe they'll just get lucky and not run into any situations where they suffer the consequences of your quirks.
Either way I have no interest in either educating you or debating you. My only concern is to put your arguments in perspective for anyone who might mistake your posts for knowledge.
I wish your children a merry xmas and all the best luck. For you, I wish you a good, but not fatal, smack upside the head by reality. And for your husband, the discernment to know when to intervene.
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Quote:Yep, just like driving. I would love to be able to ditch my car, but I can't afford the 2-hour bus ride to work, and the 2-hour bus ride home. So we MUST exist with each other on the road, in the classroom, in the workplace, the grocery store and the playground. And there are rules to keep us from hurting each other: rules against drunk driving, against smoking in public, against celebrating New Year's by firing a gun into the air, and against not being vaccinated.
As I said before, homeschooling is an option for those who can afford it, just like fluorine removal is an option for those who can afford it. Single working parents cannot afford to homeschool, and that is a huge segment of our population, who is not afforded a choice. And although it is easy in some states, but it not easy in many other states.
You want me to say that I think it's OK not to be vaccinated, but all the the articles that I've pulled up so far tell me that NOT vaccinating causes real and even individually traceable harm to others, including those who have been vaccinated. The known mechanisms of epidemics tell us this is so with mathematical certainty. And in order to support your proposed policy of "choice" without having to suffer consequences, you have to deny so much science and so much evidence that it speaks of an irrational terror.
I "get" that you had a very bad experience, so much so that you would feel like a murderer if you had your children vaccinated and they had the same problem. I think it's vital to understand the mechanisms that involve bad reactions to vaccines, and necessary to place the consequences of these bad reactions on the pharmas because that will spur research into preventing those reactions. Nonetheless, I don't think that your fear should place you or your children, or anyone else, above the consequences for NOT vaccinating. Perhaps you should try to find other non-vaccinating parents in your area and have cooperative home-schooling, or press you school district to set up a special classroom for non-vaccinated children.
Good luck. Merry Christmas.
---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:Not just like driving. I understand why you would see them as similar. You have to work and eat, you have to send your kids to school. You follow the rules you gotta to do both. I simply have a different perspective. One is a natural need to work and eat, with driving as one of many options to achieve that end (many people living in big cities use public transportation and don't drive at all). The other has the boot of tyranny on my neck, forcing me to school, then forcing me into only one option of schooling, and then forcing me to conform to the laws governing that only option. No matter where I move, that same boot follows me around. Like I said, I would have far fewer objections if there weren't compulsory schooling laws, or homeschooling laws, on top of mandatory vaccination laws that are applied to BOTH public and private schools. It is an artificial hardship created by bureaucracy, and it is relentless and oppressive.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Yep, just like driving.
Quote:No. I want you to say you value the medical ethics of the right to informed consent above reducing the risk to a few failed-vaccine recipients. Citizen is adamantly against not vaccinating, but he apparently values choice above force. I respect him for that. I suspect he finds it much easier to support choice because he lives in a country (Britain) that allows choice, and he is used to the idea that hey, choice can work!
You want me to say that I think it's OK not to be vaccinated,
Quote:It would be very easy to find the same number of articles documenting outbreaks where the index person was vaccinated. I've said this before. BOTH vaccinated and unvaccinated people are going to infect BOTH vaccinated and unvaccinated people. I really didn't want to rehash, but I again object to singling out unvaccinated people as the only ones that should be accountable for infecting people. If infection is your main concern, and not simply punishing people for not vaccinating by scapegoating them, then be consistent with everyone. Have objective criteria for schools such as antibody titers, and require that all children and school personnel, vaccinated or not, meet those antibody titer standards before being allowed to enter school.
NOT vaccinating causes real and even individually traceable harm to others,
Quote:Every policy suffers consequences. There is no such thing as a perfect, cost-free policy. And I have never denied any science, despite your repeated accusation that I do so. I have simply put all science in the context of confounders, limited their conclusions in that context, and pointed out that vaccination is a complex, multi-factorial issue that is not so black-and-white. Science does not offer any "mathematical certainties." Science is my field--what I was educated and trained to do. A science professional tends to see science as a more complex issue than a science consumer, who tends to think it all comes packaged in neat, conclusive answers.
And in order to support your proposed policy of "choice" without having to suffer consequences, you have to deny so much science and so much evidence that it speaks of an irrational terror.
Finally, the irrational terror I see is of infections and diseases and loss of "eradication heaven." It is irrational because of the aforementioned double standards. It is terror because people who otherwise value freedom and choice are so terrified they are willing to withhold choice in order to be "protected."
Quote:Thank you. I appreciate your acknowledgement.
I "get" that you had a very bad experience, so much so that you would feel like a murderer if you had your children vaccinated and they had the same problem.
Quote:I am happily homeschooling. And even if there were no mandatory vaccination laws, I would continue to happily homeschool as long as we can afford it. My fear is if something should
Perhaps you should try to find other non-vaccinating parents in your area and have cooperative home-schooling...
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Great post CTS. I find your views on this topic to be a breath of fresh air and I'm glad that I live in a place where individualists can still speak their mind and have a chance to make their own choices still.
I'm 100% in agreement with you on every point you made, except for possibly the people of the UK having more choice than we do. I don't live there, nor have I ever been there, but I do know they have a helluva lot more traffic cams up on street corners and even inside buses. I've heard a stat that the average person working in London has their photograph taken nearly 300 times a day.
They've put posters such as this up in the bus stops and on billboards too:
Or posters like this urging bus passengers to rat each other out for any suspicious behavior:
How long do you think it will be before they start seeing this poster:
I'm I paranoid? Probably.... I'd like to think of it more as just a very keen perception of my surrounding reality.
Bottom line, I do not recognize anyone on this thread, let alone any medical professional or government authority, on their beliefs that I should be vaccinated or be in violation of law otherwise.
I do welcome anyone who feels the need to vaccinate me to come by and try whenever they feel that my presence is threatening their well being.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:I mean people in Britain have vaccination choice. They do not have mandatory vaccination laws or a "no shot, no school" policy.
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I'm 100% in agreement with you on every point you made, except for possibly the people of the UK having more choice than we do.
And thanks for your kind comments and voice for freedom.
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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Quote:Well, here's something we can agree on! The children with low or no titers go to a separate class, the children with subclinical diesease get to stay home. I know you can check titers for antibodies. I wonder how you look for subclinical diseases?
The only thing I ask is that any policy targeting unvaccinated children as infection risks be consistent with vaccinated and medcially exempt children as infection risks as well. No double standards, no hypocrisy. For example, if you want to segregate unvaccinated children as infection risks, then segregate children with medical exemptions, failed-vaccine recipients, and children with subclinical disease as infection risks as well.
BTW, I know Rue offline because we happen to be working in the same field, and I can assure you that Rue IS a working scientist.
6string: I follow the principle that says the right to swing your arm ends at my nose. If you really want total choice and total freedom, you'll have to live in isolation. So, are you married? That's lesson in compromise and negotiation.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:Cough. I believe you that Rue works in a field that is considered a science.
Originally posted by SignyM:
I can assure you that Rue IS a working scientist.
Here is the thing. In common usage, the word "science" gets thrown about a lot as synonymous with technology, fact, models, and authority. There is a body of knowledge known commonly as "science," and then there is a method of inquiry and epistemology known as "science." The two are not the same thing.
Rue, physicians, and many others who work in technical fields, know a lot of facts and beliefs that are thought of as "science." But the same people can know very little about how one arrives at these facts and beliefs, and how they are determined to be "true," and the rigors and standards of the discovery process of science. For me, a scientist is someone who is educated and trained in the latter, as opposed to the former.
The scientists I know in real life, who I know have graduate training in science (the method), understand how to DO research, and therefore how to interpret research. They understand about confounders, validity, reliability, control groups, meaningless vs. meaningful statistics, sample sizes, statistical error, etc. They understand that every study has confounders and how the conclusions of each study is limited by those confounders. They understand that correlation does not equal causation. By and large, physicians and technicians don't understand these things, and neither does Rue. They are what I call science consumers, and consumers tend to have a more simplistic view of studies and their conclusions.
I do not consider anyone who doesn't understand the scientific method to be a scientist, even if they have consumed a lot of science (memorized a lot of facts and beliefs in scientific fields). At the same time, science consumers like physicians and Rue are adamant about calling themselves scientists because their livelihoods depend on their ability to consume science and apply technology.
We'll just have to disagree about the definition of "scientist."
Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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