Real World Event Discussions

Religion and the Founding Fathers

POSTED BY: misbehaven
UPDATED: Sunday, October 1, 2006 00:54
VIEWED: 7627
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SIGNYM

Friday, September 29, 2006 12:51 AM

Anti- while I agree with you that the current crop of so-called Christians are doing everything BUT following Christ's message, the point is that you by yourself can't define what is and isn't Christian. Definitions are, by (ahem) definition, SHARED meanings. And unfortunately the definition of Christian has been taken over by a rather large group which is busy making the word synoynous with "dickhead hypocrite".

And no, I don't blame "Jesus" for what's going on. But I DO blame religiosity. What is the essential message of religion? It is to believe. If there are no questions, the prospect for self-correction disappears. It leaves people open to being victimized by hypocrites who use faith to rape others.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

ANTIMASON

Friday, September 29, 2006 2:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Anti- while I agree with you that the current crop of so-called Christians are doing everything BUT following Christ's message, the point is that you by yourself can't define what is and isn't Christian. Definitions are, by (ahem) definition, SHARED meanings. And unfortunately the definition of Christian has been taken over by a rather large group which is busy making the word synoynous with "dickhead hypocrite".

SIGNYM- i completely agree with you, and i think you make a great point that i really want to emphasize. i, just like you said, have no right to say what is christian and what is not, because that would essentially be judging others, and because i am also imperfect, i have no right nor desire, to condemn others for any action; that is absolutely not my intention at all, and this is a message i endorse whole heartedly, just as Jesus does; it seems like an obvious truth to me

but in these discussions, when we talk about the history of the world religions, inevitably the comment is made that religion has only fueled divisiveness and hate, such as the holy wars, crusades, witch hunts etc(and certainly your point is a huge factor in this.) but i dont feel that its an accurate assessment of the intent of the prophets of the bible, Jesus' collective message, or even a fair acocunt of our faithfull followers.

when i make the distinction between christian and anti-christian, i am speaking in both a doctrinal and historical sense, as in; the doctrines dont promote this behavior, and historically occultism has masqueuraded as christianity and perverted its message.

i am not here, nor do i have any desire to point fingers and expose people for flaws, faults or weaknesses... i am not the kind of person to do that, nor would i want that done to me. but if someone uses christianity as a tool for control, distorts its message and perverts its followers, that does deserve to be exposed; and politicians deserve to be scrutinized in this way, because they are the primary ones decieving people...

ephesians 6 says "put on your full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devils schemes; for our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, agains the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

and my best example of this is the occult secret socieites that a number of prominant, so called christians are members of; like GW Bush and the Skull and Bones. Jesus says " for whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open. if anyone has ears to hear, let him hear" .. he says this because secrecy implies deciet, and deciet is inexcusable. well there are few people more decietful then those in power.. those people deserve to be exposed, and those are the only people i wish to confront. these people who compromise Jesus for profit, who promote false idealogies, i think Paul says it best when he says

"i promised you one husband, to Christ, so that i might present you as a pure virign to him. but i am afraid that just as Eve was deceieved by the serpernts cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. for if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you recieve a different spirit from the one you recieved, or a different gospel from the on eyou accpeted, you put up with it easily enough.

"for such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ, and no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. it is not suprisising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. their end will be what their actions deserve"

YINYANG

Friday, September 29, 2006 2:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
i think Paul says it best when he says

"i promised you one husband, to Christ, so that i might present you as a pure virign to him. but i am afraid that just as Eve was deceieved by the serpernts cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. for if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you recieve a different spirit from the one you recieved, or a different gospel from the on eyou accpeted, you put up with it easily enough.

"for such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ, and no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. it is not suprisising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. their end will be what their actions deserve"

And thus you quote Paul, the sexist. How touching.

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

Trouble-Maker in the House!

http://richlabonte.net/tvvote

CITIZEN

Friday, September 29, 2006 4:04 PM

Firstly I'd appreciate some attempt to make your posts readable. The nested quoting thing makes it impossible.

Second I'm still waiting for you to actually talk to me, rather than this other citizen who's talking about Jesus.

Thirdly I'm talking about who Christian theocracies are a bad idea. I've told you this once, and you ignored it, maybe it'll sink in this time and you'll start to engage on that point rather than shouting about how Jesus was a nice fella.

Lastly, If you read the Bible, you perscribe to a Christian church then you are a Christian, the same as Muslim fanatics are Muslim. Neither Islam nor Christianity condone murder of innocents but both have enough violence in them to make it okay if you want to do it.

Religion fosters violence against non-believers, it's just the way it is, and arguing about "but in the Bible it says..." or "Jesus said..." is just non-logic because the Bible also says it's okay to kill people if they ain't Christian. The Bible is the word of the Christian religion, all of it, not just the bits you choose to look at because it fosters the view you like.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

SIGNYM

Friday, September 29, 2006 5:04 PM

Quote:
SIGNYM- i completely agree with you, and i think you make a great point that i really want to emphasize. i, just like you said, have no right to say what is christian and what is not, because that would essentially be judging others, and because i am also imperfect, i have no right nor desire, to condemn others for any action

Anti- you so completely miss my point that I wonder if you read my post. My idea has nothing to do with imperfection and forgiveness. My point is that it's meaningless and foolish to try a create your own singular definition of a word. Here. I'll give you an example that has nothing to do with religion: My definition of the word blue is green. "The sky is such a beautiful green today, don't you think?" How far do you think that will get me?

If you try to redefine words to meet YOUR personal ideology you'll just mess up communication because- theoretically- you're trying to communicate with others so you have to use words in the way THEY understand, not in the way you would like them to be.

Quote:
but in these discussions, when we talk about the history of the world religions, inevitably the comment is made that religion has only fueled divisiveness and hate, such as the holy wars, crusades, witch hunts etc(and certainly your point is a huge factor in this.) but i dont feel that its an accurate assessment of the intent of the prophets of the bible, Jesus' collective message, or even a fair acocunt of our faithfull followers.

First of all, you switched topics in the middle of your response. It sounds as if you're agreeing with me that in general religions promote hatred, division, and intolerance.... but then halfway through you make "special" reservations for the Bible parts that you happen to agree with.

My point has nothing to do with the "intent" of any religious teaching. The moment you answer questions with faith you have created undiscriminating followers who will be open to following anyone. What you wind up with is a host of wanna-bes all waving their arms and crying out the same message: "NO! Follow ME!! I am the way! Stop the others!!"

Perhaps you would feel more comfortable with the statement that ANY theocracy is dangerous- not specifically Xtian but also Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Animist etc. If even that statement gives you qualms, think about "Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's" and then see if you can come to grips with separation of ANY church from ANY state.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

ANTIMASON

Friday, September 29, 2006 7:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Anti- you so completely miss my point that I wonder if you read my post. My idea has nothing to do with imperfection and forgiveness. My point is that it's meaningless and foolish to try a create your own singular definition of a word. Here. I'll give you an example that has nothing to do with religion: My definition of the word blue is green. "The sky is such a beautiful green today, don't you think?" How far do you think that will get me?

OK.. so lets say i say im a christian alright; yet everyday i go out into the world, i lie, cheat, steal decieve and descriminate...does that make me christian?? so what are you talking about when you say "christians this/ or that?" what im telling you is that i can say im christian, but if i dont follow its teachings does that truly make me christian?? if christians are acting other than how Jesus' recommends, than why even bother defining christian, because it loses ALL OF ITS MEANING

you are so hostile towards anyone of any fiath that it doesnt really even matter what belief i hold, but atleast i am willing to put it out there; what do you believe in? whatever it is, you wont see me attacking your behavior, or anyone else who shares your view

Quote:
If you try to redefine words to meet YOUR personal ideology you'll just mess up communication because- theoretically- you're trying to communicate with others so you have to use words in the way THEY understand, not in the way you would like them to be.

First of all, you switched topics in the middle of your response. It sounds as if you're agreeing with me that in general religions promote hatred, division, and intolerance.... but then halfway through you make "special" reservations for the Bible parts that you happen to agree with.

i agree wtih you that to single out sin, and to take its correction into your own hands is an act of judgement.. which i do not do to anyone. that i agree wtih. but the purpose of the LAW was to expose what behavior is sinful, so that an individual can correct it himself... your telling me i cant define what is sinful period; in which case the bible would be irrelevant

Quote:
My point has nothing to do with the "intent" of any religious teaching. The moment you answer questions with faith you have created undiscriminating followers who will be open to following anyone. What you wind up with is a host of wanna-bes all waving their arms and crying out the same message: "NO! Follow ME!! I am the way! Stop the others!!"

intent is THEE point, for it the intent of JEsus' message that is indisputable.. your problems lie with individuals, which.. if you want to be like that, lets call the whole world out on their flaws.. it is not just christians friend; i could name PLENTY of tyrannous empires that were not christian. there is only one Jesus', and one way to interpret his word.. dont you get that? that is EXACTLY why Jesus said to be aware of false teachers and their destruction.

Quote:
Perhaps you would feel more comfortable with the statement that ANY theocracy is dangerous- not specifically Xtian but also Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Animist etc. If even that statement gives you qualms, think about "Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's" and then see if you can come to grips with separation of ANY church from ANY state.

first of all, i have never ever said that i dont want a seperation of church and state.. i dont know where you all are getting that from. i do feel that any theocracy is dangerous, because the bible says ANY institution of this world is not of GOd; ive made this pointcountless times before. if i am in error according to scripture, show me? if people were truly just, spiritual entities in their own right, we wouldnt need a government of any sort; but in this age, with mans current sinful nature, we do need them; but NO institution, as evidenced by the catholic church, can truly represent JEsus' word

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ANTIMASON

Friday, September 29, 2006 7:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Firstly I'd appreciate some attempt to make your posts readable. The nested quoting thing makes it impossible.

Second I'm still waiting for you to actually talk to me, rather than this other citizen who's talking about Jesus.

christianity is the doctrine of Jesus' teachings. if someone is applying teachings to their life that are contradictory, than is that still christianity?

Quote:
Thirdly I'm talking about who Christian theocracies are a bad idea. I've told you this once, and you ignored it, maybe it'll sink in this time and you'll start to engage on that point rather than shouting about how Jesus was a nice fella.

our religion is based on Jesus' teachings, that is all that is relevant. if my belief were based on ghengis Khan, then wed follow his behavior, but its not, its based on the SON OF GOD JESUS

i agree.. i dont want a christian theocracy, i never said i did... i dont know what you want me to engage you on

Quote:
Lastly, If you read the Bible, you perscribe to a Christian church then you are a Christian, the same as Muslim fanatics are Muslim. Neither Islam nor Christianity condone murder of innocents but both have enough violence in them to make it okay if you want to do it.

OK.. so why do athiests murder? theyre not christians..where are they getting this from? you are arguing about the bible, but you obviously havent fully comprehended its message. MAN has a sinful nature! every human being does... Jesus' words are supposed to help us to evolve past this nature, dont you see? if someone is still murdering people, or any other unethical behavior, then they obviously dont believe that Jesus exists, that God exists, and that their actions will be judged in the next life

Quote:
Religion fosters violence against non-believers, it's just the way it is, and arguing about "but in the Bible it says..." or "Jesus said..." is just non-logic because the Bible also says it's okay to kill people if they ain't Christian. The Bible is the word of the Christian religion, all of it, not just the bits you choose to look at because it fosters the view you like.

yah, just as religion fosters violence against believers aswell, as this entire website is evidence of.. yet who have you seen me personally attack, besides OCCULTISTS? no one.. yet you all have a problem with me because i am reinforcing Jesus' message which is LOVE ABOVE ALL ELSE

please, show me the parts that i am not accepting? i have accepted the entire message of the bible, i find that quite hypocritical, as it is you who does not believe any of it

SIGNYM

Friday, September 29, 2006 8:00 PM

dbl.

SIGNYM

Friday, September 29, 2006 8:00 PM

Quote:
OK.. so lets say i say im a christian alright; yet everyday i go out into the world, i lie, cheat, steal decieve and descriminate...does that make me christian?? so what are you talking about when you say "christians this/ or that?" what im telling you is that i can say im christian, but if i dont follow its teachings does that truly make me christian??

Which teachings would those be? The ones that allow you to stone your wife?

Quote:
if christians are acting other than how Jesus' recommends, than why even bother defining christian, because it loses ALL OF ITS MEANING

Possibly the flaw is with the very foundation of your religion (the Bible) which includes so many ambiguities and self-contradictions that it is impossible to define "Christian". There are a lot of people who engage in wildly divergent behavior- from bigamy to celibacy, blood sacrifice to environmentalism, who can ALL point to SOME parts of "the Bible" which will fully justify their particular belief system. Are they wrong? Is the Bible wrong? Who decides?

Quote:
you are so hostile towards anyone of any fiath that it doesnt really even matter what belief i hold, but atleast i am willing to put it out there; what do you believe in?

I believe in relentlessly asking questions and testing the answers against sensible evidence.

Quote:
but the purpose of the LAW was to expose what behavior is sinful, so that an individual can correct it himself... your telling me i cant define what is sinful period; in which case the bible would be irrelevant

AHA! Now we're getting somewhere!

Guess what... the Bible WAS irrelevent to the Founding Fathers. The purpose of "the law" is to define what's LEGAL, not what is SINFUL. Since the FF managed to make that distinction I believe that you can too.

Quote:
intent is THEE point, for it the intent of JEsus' message that is indisputable.. your problems lie with individuals, which.. if you want to be like that, lets call the whole world out on their flaws.. it is not just christians friend; i could name PLENTY of tyrannous empires that were not christian. there is only one Jesus', and one way to interpret his word.. dont you get that? that is EXACTLY why Jesus said to be aware of false teachers and their destruction.

If I intend to do much good but I keep creating much harm, then not only do my intentions not count I would seem to be incapable of learning. The "intent" of MANY belief systems is good. Communism was going to get rid of injustice. Democracy as going to eliminate corruption. Jesus was going to eliminate hate. The public school systems was going to educate everybody.

The only way to reduce the power of belief systems to cause harm is to constantly check results against goals. Are we getting there? If not, what do we need to do differently? A system that doesn't take human imperfection into account is a stupid system. Doubly stupid if it CLAIMS to know that people are imperfect, gets derailed in major ways because of that imperfection, and then fails to get back on course as a routine matter.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

ANTIMASON

Sunday, October 1, 2006 12:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Which teachings would those be? The ones that allow you to stone your wife?

that was the OT, which is a pretty accurate historical collection of documents; we know the world was no utopia 4000yrs ago... well history didnt record it that way either. first of all, God severely punished the Jews for their behavior; think of it as their carma if you will, for creating such institutionalized herecy; therefore Jesus was sent and established the NEW COVENANT, essentially supercedeeding the traditions of the old covenant. that is why Jesus' specific words and teachings are important

Quote:
Possibly the flaw is with the very foundation of your religion (the Bible) which includes so many ambiguities and self-contradictions that it is impossible to define "Christian". There are a lot of people who engage in wildly divergent behavior- from bigamy to celibacy, blood sacrifice to environmentalism, who can ALL point to SOME parts of "the Bible" which will fully justify their particular belief system. Are they wrong?

think about this from Gods perspective.. what is good? maybe its whatever balances itself equally with nature... my point is this: their are occult societies from the beginning of mankind who have purpetuated false doctrines among the beleivers, and frankly the whole world.. to literally bring mankind under a global government, global religion of the antichrist. this agenda, essentially a false reality.. was promoted by these secret societies, which are not JESUS christian, but are satanic.. that is why the NT constantly warns of diceptive doctrines and philosophies which would deny the truths of Jesus' and God the father, and create a false messiah or antichrist

Quote:
Is the Bible wrong? Who decides

well.. i dont know; but i ask myself, who benefits if the bible was just a clever tool to brainswash people? Jesus' message is far from fearmonger or fear inspiring.. we are not to covet money, wealth or material possessions.. i mean, this is why the world is in this mess in first place

Quote:
Guess what... the Bible WAS irrelevent to the Founding Fathers. The purpose of "the law" is to define what's LEGAL, not what is SINFUL. Since the FF managed to make that distinction I believe that you can too.

this has been my point all along; that many of our founders, and their principles, were influenced by idealogies(like the Masons/Illuminati etc) which are in-fact occultic. you are a knowledgeable guy, and i know you are familiar with the neocon NWO* plot because i agree wtih a majority of your postings in other threads. this is why i ask that you consider this information which has been uncovered, and how it ties into Americas occult destiny as prophesied in the bible
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/bloodlineintroduction.h
tm

Quote:
If I intend to do much good but I keep creating much harm, then not only do my intentions not count I would seem to be incapable of learning. The "intent" of MANY belief systems is good. Communism was going to get rid of injustice. Democracy as going to eliminate corruption. Jesus was going to eliminate hate. The public school systems was going to educate everybody.

The only way to reduce the power of belief systems to cause harm is to constantly check results against goals. Are we getting there? If not, what do we need to do differently? A system that doesn't take human imperfection into account is a stupid system. Doubly stupid if it CLAIMS to know that people are imperfect, gets derailed in major ways because of that imperfection, and then fails to get back on course as a routine matter.

i agree.. MY point being that an institutionalized christianity inherintly becomes occultic because it forges conflicts of interests with the world(which is controlled by lucifer). *this is why this NWO agenda is occultic, and not christian, and why the true message of the bible poses a threat and is an obsticle to its fruit