REHASHING OLD TOPICS:JAYNE: TRAITOR or REPENTOR?

POSTED BY: TragicStory
UPDATED: Monday, August 11, 2003 19:38
VIEWED: 6064
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MANIACNUMBERONE

Tuesday, July 29, 2003 5:58 AM

I am of the opinion that Jayne HAS changed his ways, but that he will be tempted in the future to prove it.

ARCHER

Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:27 AM

Ah yes, I've had this one out a few times with various people. My opinion is that Mal should have killed him at the end of Ariel, and I fully believe Mal was ready to, until Jayne hit him at his weak spot. Mal is on the outs with religion, but he still has all the old ethics in his heart, and a belief that anybody can be redeemed.

As for Jayne himself, I see him as a guy who at the core wants to be good, but he's never had the personal strength to pull it off. He's always been the muscle, hanging around with various scum, and being a fundamentally weak kind of guy, he behaves the way they expect him to.

Now he's on Serenity, and they still essentially treat him like a thug (with the exception of Kaylee and Book) and so he still acts the part. But I get the sense that certain things are starting to bleed over into his character. Where that was developing was in The Message, his scene with Book, and the letter from his mother.

There ain't nothin' I can't overcome or come to know. So lay your heavy load down on me, strip everything I have away. I am not your prisoner, I am not afraid.

TRAGICSTORY

Tuesday, July 29, 2003 5:05 PM

Don't forget the scene in Serenity where Jayne is crouching and peeking into the Med Bay to check in on Kaylee.

It is obvious that he is devoted to the crew and Simon threatened one of them.

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"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

FLYINFREE

Tuesday, July 29, 2003 7:55 PM

Quote:
Don't forget the scene in Serenity where Jayne is crouching and peeking into the Med Bay to check in on Kaylee.

It is obvious that he is devoted to the crew and Simon threatened one of them.

You are way too trusting.

There are other explainations for that:

1) Everybody has a soft spot for Kaylee.
2) Morbid curiousity.
3) Boredom, he just didn't have anything better to do and it was the only source of activity on the ship at the time.
4) He was waiting for the doc to finish so he could watch Mal kill him.

Still flyin'...

TRAGICSTORY

Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:24 PM

I love reason 4.

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"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

TZEGHA

Sunday, August 10, 2003 6:33 PM

I think this will be *positive thinking* one of the big themes for Jayne, not just specific to Ariel:

Is he a traitor at heart, or is the purpose of his character redemption? Well, the latter is too common for some of the other characters (Mal, Book).

But to address the original question, I think Jayne just rolled with the punches, practical like. I think that River's attack on him, coupled with the opportunity and his belief that they are not part of the crew and a danger to them all, instigated his betrayal. Then he has several moments of doubt (sympathy for River when he learns of her torture, admiration for Simon when he saves the patient) but he sticks to his plan. Then the plan goes south (after he went ahead with it, despite his newfound doubts), and he tries to escape. The Tams coming along (or him dogging the Tams) is just another matter of course. They both needed to escape, plan is out the window, they just sorta stick together (mostly because of Simon's belief that they are together.

I discussed Jayne's role of redemption in older posts at the OB as well as in email (yes, I'm a freak, I talk about the show in analytical detail in private too) and I got to wondering:

Is Jayne the big soft, toothless cuddly lion that everyone is fearing he is becoming? Or is something dark and dangerous brewing beneath that momma's boy exterior. Jayne is dangerous even more so because that 'hidden teddy bear' that so many see gives a false sense of comfort. His seeming simplicity and 'stupidity' may belie a far more cunning intelligence (and there are all kinds of intelligence).

From the OB, post # 5799.124 ( http://forums.prospero.com/n/main.asp?webtag=foxfirefly&msg=5799.124&f
ind=Search), I hope I'm not out of place quoting Zencat (it starts out with a lot of Mal stuff, but hang in there):

"...Mal doesn't hope for anything good. He refers to himself, more than once, as a "bad man." (To Kaylee in "Serenity," "I'm a mean old man." Said with a weight of weariness, and I think he really believes it.) I think the thing about Mal is, he still does believe in his religion, but he believes his God betrayed him and in defiance he's tried to become - well, in a way, he's tried to become Jayne, a man who only cares for himself and what's his. Mal believes he won't be going to heaven, even if there is one, because he's turned his back on God. He's become a "bad man."

But he isn't, really. He's a good man, a hero, a compassionate protective generous man, and a leader. [snip] Instead of ditching Simon and River - which the ever-practical and ruthless man he's trying to be (*cough*Jayne) would have done, he makes them part of his crew. Part of himself."

I wrote in regards to this:
"Thinking about it, I see Jayne's development, if he doesn't go the rotten apple route, is him becoming less selfish, integrating himself as part of the group (I know, it's all obvious standard drivel, but I'm not real imaginative when it comes to Jayne-- and when it comes to Jayne, this stuff is rocket science ;P ), becoming less selfish, expanding his scope . . .
just as we are speculating Mal to do. Except with Jayne it's small baby steps, the scope is going from just One to Nine. With Mal it's going from Nine to the 'Verse (or some more manageable yet heroic number)."

Heidi wrote in response "It's a bit odd since the direction Mal is trying to shape Jayne is the exact opposite of the direction he himself wants to be like Jayne, but maybe that's another reason he both cuts Jayne so much slack and is so hard on him. He's conflicted about Jayne just like
he's conflicted about wanting to be like Jayne in some respects. [snip]It's like Mal tries to portray himself as a Jayne-type guy, wishes he could ditch his righteousness and finer sensibilities since they've served him so poorly. But at the same time he's influencing Jayne to have some of those sensibilities. Geez, no wonder Jayne gets confused or taken aback by Mal a lot - he's pretty gorram inconsistent! So Jayne is movin

CHRISTHECYNIC

Sunday, August 10, 2003 11:02 PM

I think Jayne is loyal solely to himself and to his family, and I think that the crew of Serenity is his family.

Not that I think that you would hear Jayne put it that way.

I think he’s more loyal than he’d like to let on. In Serenity he was all set to hand over Simon and River, but he wouldn’t betray the captain. I don’t think it was because the money wasn’t good enough, or rather I think the money would never be good enough. He must have had many opportunities to turn in Simon and River, and I don’t doubt he was willing to the entire time, but he didn’t try until he could do it without directly betraying anyone he thought of as the crew.

I think that Jayne would risk his life for anyone who he considered crew without question, I also think the would complain about it the entire time. Just like when they went after the captain in War Stories I think he would say he wouldn’t, think of excuses to not do it, but in the end he would do it regardless of the risk to himself.

We don’t know how the crew earned family status with him, but they obviously have more than a working relationship, he kicked his partner out of a ship, and shot his previous crew when there was money on the line. All that it took was a better offer to betray his old crew and join Serenity, but in the episode Serenity he got a better offer and did not betray the crew. That shows there is more than what is on the surface.

(I don’t doubt that he would have gone back for Mal and Zoey in The Train Job, I just think he was going to take his time.)

RAW53X

Monday, August 11, 2003 4:24 PM

Jayne is single minded. and when his mind is set, it takes a lot to change it. i think the reason he betraied simon and river is simple. he thinks simon is a liar and river is just crazy i dont think he really belives the experament story of simons untill the sceen in the scaner room. you can se him regret turning them in by the expreshion on his face.
also few have proven ther loyalty to him.
think about it he lives in a world were dubble dealing and backstabbing are a way of life. he has probley been betrayed by others he has trusted. he is a loaner but deep down most loaner really want to belong.
jayne is a charater who is ment to evolve and become more complex as the story continues. as apossed to the others whos complexiteis are unraveld as the show goes on.

HATEHATEHATEFOX

Monday, August 11, 2003 7:38 PM

Quote:

I have NEVER had military training BUT if Fox comes knocking ony door blaming me for copyright infrngment for ALL of Firefly.net. I would admit all guilt, tell them to FUCK OFF and go to jail.

Just because you have never been in the military does not mean one can not sacrifice one'self for the greater good.

ROTFLMAO! I would post your bail! If I had any money that is!

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