Why is Mal anti-companion?

POSTED BY: akredhead
UPDATED: Thursday, December 28, 2006 01:27
VIEWED: 17411
PAGE 4 of 9

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 NEXT PAGE

LOSTDOG

Thursday, August 24, 2006 4:54 PM

Some interesting responses. I am certain that in the relation to companions and the Alliance, he has a problem. Anything that has to do with the alliance he has a problem with(don't blame him my own self). I don't particularly think it is the actions companions do. Having said that though, I think that our Captain may have a little crush on Inara and he might not too much care for her visits to clients. I mean, at first, he was glad to have a companion on board because it brings a kind of respectability, but now that he likes her, things are different.

TWILIGHTJACK

Thursday, August 24, 2006 4:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I think there is a big difference between Companion and whore, because of the whole pretense of feelings...

I haven't been able to pitch in, but I'm enjoying the debate. One thing though - consensus is not necessarily the goal of a debate, I think! We can learn from understanding someone else's point of view without agreeing.

Which I think is happening here, and it's nice because it doesn't turn into RWED ugliness!!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

My point about debate producing concensus is based upon an Aristotlean notion of objective truth. If two reasonable people discuss reasonably, they should discover the same truth together, as truth is unchanging and can be discovered through the proper application of reason. As I do not buy into a black/white objectivist dichotomy, I don't hold to this concept, but it's a nice framework of suspension of disbelief, allowing for vigourous debate without animosity.

ASORTAFAIRYTALE

Thursday, August 24, 2006 4:58 PM

Yeah pretty much what everyone else has said, I have always thought it was because they were connected to the alliance, and Mal doesn't really like anything that has to do with them.

------

We're all just floating...

RUGBUG

Thursday, August 24, 2006 5:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadLatin:
I think this is part of the series backstory which was never fleshed out - pun intended. We all know what led Mal to be what he is - what about Inara?

Could be the opposite, that Inara's feelings for Mal challenge what is a very deep devotion to her profession. ;)

After all, she seems to genuinely enjoy her job, and hearing her talk about Guild traditions with such reverence, it's more than a mere foil to her.

Yes, but from HOG, we know that Inara was headed for the top of her profession. She could've been house priestess. You don't leave that if you have very deep devotion to your profession. She only returns to the core of her profession once she finally recognizes the need to break away from Mal. Her feelings for him are getting in the way of her job.

On the difference between Companion and whore...the only difference between Inara and Nandi is registration with the Guild.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, August 24, 2006 6:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:

Yes, but from HOG, we know that Inara was headed for the top of her profession. She could've been house priestess. You don't leave that if you have very deep devotion to your profession. She only returns to the core of her profession once she finally recognizes the need to break away from Mal. Her feelings for him are getting in the way of her job.

Who says that as House Priestess Inara wouldn't still have taken clients? Or that teaching trainees is the core of her profession?

We really have no idea why she left, but there is a bit of indication that it might not have been entirely voluntary. Besides, Inara never gives up her job, she uses her time on Serenity - for whatever reason she came there - to expand her client base. She doesn't look for excuses to not do her job, she complains to Mal when he gets in the way, and as you rightly point out, when she realizes that her feelings for Mal have become too strong, she leaves.

I'm not certain how this indicates a lack of devotion to her job..

Quote:
On the difference between Companion and whore...the only difference between Inara and Nandi is registration with the Guild.

I disagree. I doubt that her job allows Nandi to practice all the things she learned during her training. Nandi has had the same education Inara had, or nearly, but the job she chose (which was probably not her only choice) has no demand for all those things.

Her choice to practice under the unsafe conditions without Guild protection, that is the difference between Inara and Nandi. I sincerely doubt Inara would do the work Nandi chose to do, simply because it's entirely different. There's no councelling, nothing spiritual about what Nandi and her girls do. Their work isn't the point to them, their relative freedom is.

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, August 24, 2006 6:28 PM

Double post.

RUGBUG

Thursday, August 24, 2006 6:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:

Yes, but from HOG, we know that Inara was headed for the top of her profession. She could've been house priestess. You don't leave that if you have very deep devotion to your profession. She only returns to the core of her profession once she finally recognizes the need to break away from Mal. Her feelings for him are getting in the way of her job.

Who says that as House Priestess Inara wouldn't still have taken clients? Or that teaching trainees is the core of her profession?

I never said anything about not taking clients. And by core of her profession, I was referring to the actually place, not the action. She returns to the training house. The center of companion life/training.

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
We really have no idea why she left, but there is a bit of indication that it might not have been entirely voluntary.

There is? Can you please explain because I never picked up on that. To me it has always seemed that Inara left of her own volition.

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I'm not certain how this indicates a lack of devotion to her job.

Different conclusions from different assumptions? We are definitely coming from two different places so our conclusions are going to be different.

For me, if you voluntarily leave a place where you are headed for great things there are only a few conclusions and devotion to the job isn't one. Possible conclusions:
1. The job is unfulfilling
2. You are unhappy in job
3. You are bored
4. You don't like where the job will take you
5. You're tired of the demands of job

None of those point to devotion to said job.

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
On the difference between Companion and whore...the only difference between Inara and Nandi is registration with the Guild.

I disagree. I doubt that her job allows Nandi to practice all the things she learned during her training. Nandi has had the same education Inara had, or nearly, but the job she chose (which was probably not her only choice) has no demand for all those things.

Hypothetical: Take two doctors, both trained at the same medical school. Both get their license to practice and both are good doctors. Then one day, one decides the rigors of following AMA guidelines are too strict and confining. They don't renew their license, but head off to a third world country to practice medicine. Does that make their training/education/knowledge any less? Does that training/education/knowledge only yield the title "doctor" if the AMA says it does (i.e. issues license?)

We don't know if Nandi uses her Companion training. She definitely gets Mal to comply. Her story of the dulcimer plays right into his hands. Not wanting the follow the established rule, taking off and carving out a life of her own, by her rules and standards. It's freedom and is exactly what Mal respects and makes Nandi more attractive to him. That right there is "wiles." (If Inara would be a little less bound to rules, you can bet the two of them would've been together). She's a companion without the license.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, August 24, 2006 8:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
I never said anything about not taking clients. And by core of her profession, I was referring to the actually place, not the action. She returns to the training house. The center of companion life/training.

You're right, I misunderstood. However, Inara does not return to Sihnon, she stays on the Rim, which might or might not indicate an inability to return there, or an unwillingness born of something other than job dissatisfaction.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
We really have no idea why she left, but there is a bit of indication that it might not have been entirely voluntary.

There is? Can you please explain because I never picked up on that. To me it has always seemed that Inara left of her own volition.

We have very little hard evidence to go on, obviously.

In the pilot, when the young man mentions that he can't imagine ever leaving Sihnon, she looks away, whistfully. It's intercut out of time with her actual speaking and it indicates a deeper story behind her words.

Plus, Joss and every one have stated repeatedly that Inara has secrets and a past. Coupled with her, indeed, unusual choice to leave a promising career, this could easily indicate some amount of pressure to leave the Core, be it direct or indirect.

Quote:

For me, if you voluntarily leave a place where you are headed for great things there are only a few conclusions and devotion to the job isn't one. Possible conclusions:
1. The job is unfulfilling
2. You are unhappy in job
3. You are bored
4. You don't like where the job will take you
5. You're tired of the demands of job

None of those point to devotion to said job.

You are already assuming that she left voluntarily. You completely discount the possibility of outside pressure in any way shape or form, the nature of which we can't know because we don't have enough evidence, but that doesn't mean it's not a possibility.

There's a host of theories out there, even, ranging from hidden crime over terminal illness to some kind of private entanglement gone wrong. None of which would have a direct relation to whether she is devoted to her job or not.

Quote:

Hypothetical: Take two doctors, both trained at the same medical school. Both get their license to practice and both are good doctors. Then one day, one decides the rigors of following AMA guidelines are too strict and confining. They don't renew their license, but head off to a third world country to practice medicine. Does that make their training/education/knowledge any less? Does that training/education/knowledge only yield the title "doctor" if the AMA says it does (i.e. issues license?)

I don't think the example applies. Losing one's licence is not a pre-requisite for going to the third world to practice medicine, nor does the doctor in the third world lose the opportunity to use everything he has learned and practiced so far.

Not to mention, Nandi is not exactly the typical common prostitute. That's another Big Difference. She HAS had the Companion training and the according range of choices that 99.9% of prostitutes don't have. It's that training, largely, that yields the title Companion, as it's the pre-requisite for even getting registration.

Your basic shaman is also active in medical issues but I wouldn't call him a doctor, no.

But while registration is what allows Inara to be a Companion and do a Companion's work, giving Nandi's house the title Companion would do nothing to make the two services equal, unless all her girls got Guild Education, and infrastructure allowed Nandi a wider ranger of actual choice in terms of custumers.

Quote:

We don't know if Nandi uses her Companion training. She definitely gets Mal to comply.

She certainly does manipulate him in many subtle ways, indeed. She even offers him a form of therapy.

But I doubt Mal is the typical customer. Men don't come to the HOG to be tal

RUGBUG

Thursday, August 24, 2006 8:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
We have very little hard evidence to go on, obviously.

In the pilot, when the young man mentions that he can't imagine ever leaving Sihnon, she looks away, whistfully. It's intercut out of time with her actual speaking and it indicates a deeper story behind her words.

Plus, Joss and every one have stated repeatedly that Inara has secrets and a past. Coupled with her, indeed, unusual choice to leave a promising career, this could easily indicate some amount of pressure to leave the Core, be it direct or indirect.

Quote:

For me, if you voluntarily leave a place where you are headed for great things there are only a few conclusions and devotion to the job isn't one. Possible conclusions:
1. The job is unfulfilling
2. You are unhappy in job
3. You are bored
4. You don't like where the job will take you
5. You're tired of the demands of job

None of those point to devotion to said job.

You are already assuming that she left voluntarily. You completely discount the possibility of outside pressure in any way shape or form, the nature of which we can't know because we don't have enough evidence, but that doesn't mean it's not a possibility.

There's a host of theories out there, even, ranging from hidden crime over terminal illness to some kind of private entanglement gone wrong. None of which would have a direct relation to whether she is devoted to her job or not.

Oh, I absolutely believe there is back story. and if I'm discounting that there could be external pressure forcing Inara to leave, you're discounting the possibility that there might not be. I just don't believe Inara's decision to ship out was involuntary. I make that assumption, just as you make the assumption that it wasn't. That's what I said in my previous post.

And I haven't read a theory yet that I thought was the actual story. Some outright made me laugh (the terminal illness one, for instance...I personally think that is ridiculous. If Joss decides to prove me wrong, so be it. But if he does, I will be VERY, VERY upset with him).

Quote:
Quote:

Hypothetical: Take two doctors, both trained at the same medical school. Both get their license to practice and both are good doctors. Then one day, one decides the rigors of following AMA guidelines are too strict and confining. They don't renew their license, but head off to a third world country to practice medicine. Does that make their training/education/knowledge any less? Does that training/education/knowledge only yield the title "doctor" if the AMA says it does (i.e. issues license?)

I don't think the example applies. Losing one's licence is not a pre-requisite for going to the third world to practice medicine, nor does the doctor in the third world lose the opportunity to use everything he has learned and practiced so far.

Huh? I never said anything about "losing" one's license. I said doesn't "renew their license." In other words, makes a conscious decision to no longer be a licensed doctor...but then decides to go somewhere on the outer rim (i.e. third world) to do essentially the same thing.

Quote:

But while registration is what allows Inara to be a Companion and do a Companion's work, giving Nandi's house the title Companion would do nothing to make the two services equal, unless all her girls got Guild Education, and infrastructure allowed Nandi a wider ranger of actual choice in terms of custumers.

Again, you've read way too much into my post. My first post said the difference between Inara and Nandi. Not Nandi's house or Nandi's girls. The comparison was strictly Inara and Nandi. Inara possibly has more training than Nandi, but the only difference between them, IMO, is Guild registration.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, August 24, 2006 9:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:

Oh, I absolutely believe there is back story. and if I'm discounting that there could be external pressure forcing Inara to leave, you're discounting the possibility that there might not be.

Actually, I just meant to carve away at the absolute way you phrased your statements. I am not discounting anything. I'm pointing out indications and possibilities. You came across as pretty "This is the way", which prompted me to argue.

Glad we can agree to accept each other's different opinions as valid, then.

Quote:

Huh? I never said anything about "losing" one's license. I said doesn't "renew their license." In other words, makes a conscious decision to no longer be a licensed doctor...but then decides to go somewhere on the outer rim (i.e. third world) to do essentially the same thing.

Well, either way, a lack of licence is not obligatory to do the work you describe, and apparently we'll just have to agree to disagree whether the work Nandi does is the same that Inara does. I really don't think it is, you apparently do. We won't likely convince each other. :)

Quote:

Quote:

But while registration is what allows Inara to be a Companion and do a Companion's work, giving Nandi's house the title Companion would do nothing to make the two services equal, unless all her girls got Guild Education, and infrastructure allowed Nandi a wider ranger of actual choice in terms of custumers.

Again, you've read way too much into my post. My first post said the difference between Inara and Nandi. Not Nandi's house or Nandi's girls. The comparison was strictly Inara and Nandi. Inara possibly has more training than Nandi, but the only difference between them, IMO, is Guild registration.

But you started the sentence with "the difference between Companion and whore..." indicating a relation to the general subject and an equation between Nandi and common whore, which is simply not correct and what I argued against.

Similarly, you choose to ignore what I already said on the subject. To me, the difference between Inara and Nandi is in the work they chose.
Nandi isn't a prostitute in even a remotely similar environment as Inara. If she lived in a society like Sihnon and did the type of councelling work Inara did, but did not receive the respect that real Companions receive, then the only difference and the only reason for their different status would be the Guild registration.

Instead, Nandi moved to the ass end of the universe, among people who have a default disdain for prostitutes and she lives a poor live that doesn't allow her to use her training. It's not comparable.

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 NEXT PAGE