Liberals can't defend America

POSTED BY: Hero
UPDATED: Saturday, July 15, 2006 16:08
VIEWED: 13702
PAGE 3 of 11

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 NEXT PAGE

CHOKAI

Monday, July 3, 2006 11:24 PM

Hero -

North Korean subs are so crappy that this technology is totally unecessary. If you wanna get your conservative gander up realize that this is a HUGE waste of your tax dollars. Or for that matter the US F22 program on which we have spent more than $100B when there is still no plane in the world that can even touch the F-15E with AAMRAM. Even Senior US military officers have questioned the need for these programs. They would rather pay thier soldiers a better wage and have money to buy them body armor for deployment to Iraq. Rather than more needless wiz-bang weapons systems.

To give you a level of the technological disparity between the US and Korea and even China for that matter. In 1997 Clinton parked a US Carrier Battle group a mere 200 miles off the Chinese and Korean coasts. The Chinese couldn't find it.

North Korean submarines are of the Whiskey/Romeo class and are a derivitive of a design originally developed by the germans during World War II.

The DPRK Navy does not have fuel to put to sea, much less train. They cannot manufacture or obtain spare parts for thier boats, they are rusting hulking pieces of crap (literally).

The Chinese have not sold any new subs of note to the Koreans as of this last months review of world wide submarine forces posted in the United States Naval Institutes proceedings journal (which is a great magazine btw, I recommend you subscribe).

HERO

Monday, July 3, 2006 11:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Because, apparently, this particular tool is the ONLY way we have of figuring out what is going on under the sea.

I remind you, our killer dolphins are untested in combat.

H

STILLFLYIN

Tuesday, July 4, 2006 2:33 AM

Ok, I am not going to take sides here I'd just like to throw what I know about Anti-Submarine Warfare into the mix. The major threats to US carriers in port are disel powerd subs running submerged on battery. And the passive sonar arrays that were mentioned earlier are almost useless against them. They are designed to detect Nuclear-powered fast-attack and missile subs. A battery powered vessel's noise emination is almost imperceptable compared to a nuclear-powered vessel's. The best way to detect a disel sub from the surface is by using active sonar, similar to a bat's echolocation.

CAUSAL

Tuesday, July 4, 2006 2:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I see, we have Liberals on this board and Conservatives and the fact that the way they conduct themselves here is more in line with my predicate is inadmissible?

There's a big difference to saying George Bush doesn't care about black people and saying all Liberals are X, a huge difference, the two aren't even comparable.

But that's just my point! I don't agree that either side is better or worse; they both engage in the behavior equally. It's just difficult to perceive that when one has an ideological commitment to a particular side, because from that ideological point of view, X-Behavior is justified (irrespective of which side it happens to be).

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

KWICKO

Tuesday, July 4, 2006 4:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Now its perfectly safe for North Korea to sail its Chinese made, brand new, diesel-electric subs right up to our carriers and blow them out of the water ending American naval control of the Pacific Ocean. Perhaps the Chinese could sail one of their own right into and back out of Pearl Harbor. We wouldn't even know until it was too late. Good job liberals. Making the world safe for the enemies of freedom everwhere.

Quote:

Judge Temporarily Bars Navy Use of Sonar
Jul 03 2:59 PM US/Eastern
Email this story

LOS ANGELES

A federal judge issued a temporary restraining order Monday barring the Navy from using a type of sonar, allegedly harmful to marine mammals, during a Pacific warfare exercise scheduled to begin this week.

The order comes three days after the Navy obtained a six-month national defense exemption from the Defense Department allowing it to use "mid-frequency active sonar."

Environmental groups had sued to stop the sonar use during the exercises off Hawaii. The sonar portion of the war games was set to start Thursday.

U.S. District Judge Florence-Marie Cooper wrote in her order that the plaintiffs "have shown a possibility that RIMPAC 2006 will kill, injure, and disturb many marine species, including marine mammals, in waters surrounding the Hawaiian Islands."

To be fair I don't really know if she's liberal. My evidence is suspect. First of all its a female federal judge in California who hyphens her name. Or there is this:
Quote:

Cooper, Florence-Marie
Born 1940 in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Federal Judicial Service:
U. S. District Court, Central District of California
Nominated by William J. Clinton on July 14, 1999, to a seat vacated by Linda H. McLaughlin; Confirmed by the Senate on November 10, 1999, and received commission on November 15, 1999.

Not content with American liberals, he imports one from Canada. Wonder if she's legal...

H

Okay, let's start from the top. First off, I don't think one of North Korea's diesel-electric subs is going to "sneak" into anywhere. Diesel subs are about as quiet as diesel trucks - with the added bonus of sound travelling much further and more effectively through water than it does through air!

Secondly, we're not talking about completely disabling ALL subs, or ALL types of sonar equipment - we're talking specifically about one type of sonar, a mid-frequency active sonar. Far as I know (which ain't far, in this case), "active" sonars are used more for specific targeting, once you've already ascertained that there's a bad guy in the area and pretty well located him. The active sonar is generally, from my understanding, used near the end of the chase, to "lock on" to an enemy boat. Why? Because "active" sonars don't just show you where enemy boats are; they also show them where YOU are, lighting you up like a beacon in the night. Not a good thing to do in submarine warfare, wouldn't you agree? This is why the vast majority of tracking and finding enemy subs and fleets is done with passive sonar, towed arrays, and extremely sensitive hydrophonic listening gear - you listen carefully for any sound that *doesn't* belong, and then you track it back to its source, and you find your bogey.

If you think that taking away this one tool is going to cripple the entire US Navy, you really do have a dim view of our armed forces and their abilities. Amazing that you, a war-hawking conservative, even believe we can mount a fight against rock-throwing insurgents...

Quote:
To be fair I don't really know if she's liberal. My evidence is suspect. First of all its a female federal judge in California who hyphens her name.

So... by your reckoning, anyone who "hyphens" ("hyphenates" is the word you were looking for, I believe) her name is suspected of being a liberal. Even if she hyphenates her first name. And, of course, being a female and from California, that just nails the coffin lid shut. She *must* be a libera

CAUSAL

Tuesday, July 4, 2006 5:43 AM

Citizen--

Just wanted to say, since I haven't heard back from my last post, that it's always a pleasure going 'round an issue with you. It's clear that we don't agree (and to be honest, we rarely do), but regardless, I always enjoy our conversations because you seem to be committed to level-headed dialogue (as opposed to mere demagoguery). You are an officer and a gentleman, sir, and my hat's off to you.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, July 4, 2006 5:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
But that's just my point! I don't agree that either side is better or worse; they both engage in the behavior equally. It's just difficult to perceive that when one has an ideological commitment to a particular side, because from that ideological point of view, X-Behavior is justified (irrespective of which side it happens to be).

But of course an attack leveled at an individual pertaining to a single event is different to say "all X is Y".

There's a huge difference between saying "that guys a criminal" and "all men are criminals".

I knew this American guy once (not that he's the only American I know, Americans aren't endangered or rare or nuthin') and he was a right twat. A grade 'A' arsehole.

There's a big difference between that prior statement and saying "All Americans are Arseholes."

Quote:
Just wanted to say, since I haven't heard back from my last post, that it's always a pleasure going 'round an issue with you. It's clear that we don't agree (and to be honest, we rarely do), but regardless, I always enjoy our conversations because you seem to be committed to level-headed dialogue (as opposed to mere demagoguery). You are an officer and a gentleman, sir, and my hat's off to you.

Thanks, I try, some say very, though I wonder if that's not the minority opinion:
ENTER: ShadowFly - Stage right

Plus demagoguery, I learned a new word today, thanks.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

HERO

Tuesday, July 4, 2006 6:31 PM

Quote:
Okay, let's start from the top. First off, I don't think one of North Korea's diesel-electric subs is going to "sneak" into anywhere. Diesel subs are about as quiet as diesel trucks - with the added bonus of sound travelling much further and more effectively through water than it does through air!

You may want to read up on the subject. Diesel subs are generally quieter then nuclear subs when operating submerged and using batteries. Their are some severe limitations over nuclear subs such as range, speed and the need to periodically snorkle which makes them detectable by radar and by aircraft. They are most effective in shallow waters and that is also where nuclear subs are least effective. Now pull up a map and you'll see funny names like the 'South China Sea' and 'Sea of Japan'. These seas happen to be shallow. Thats why a couple weeks ago the navy published a report indicating that Chinese and Chinese made North Korean diesel subs were becoming capable of sea denial in regions of the Western Pacific and coastal waters off Korea, Taiwan, Japan, and Indonesia.

I have faith that should a war break out then the Judge in question might see fit to reverse her ruling, assuming all the enviromental impact studies are properly filed. Unfortunately American history has shown that often our blinders come off a day too late for many thousands of American citizens or servicemen. I sugggest the enviromental risk of a sunken American nuclear carrier task force is greater then the risk to sea ecology of a little noise here and there.

Quote:

Secondly, we're not talking about completely disabling ALL subs, or ALL types of sonar equipment - we're talking specifically about one type of sonar

Navy says they need it, and they know more about these things then some liberal judge or a bunch of tree huggers who run to court to promote an agenda they'd never get passed through an elected body.

I think national security is more important then ecological impact.

Quote:

So... by your reckoning, anyone who "hyphens" ("hyphenates" is the word you were looking for, I believe) her name is suspected of being a liberal. Even if she hyphenates her first name. And, of course, being a female and from California, that just nails the coffin lid shut. She *must* be a liberal!

She could just be a duck...looks like one, sounds like one...although to be fair to me, I did note that my evidence: name, gender, location, was suspect so I then included the fact she was appointed by Clinton.

That she's Canadian boggles the mind, how does a Canadian become an American judge and how can someone who's not an American act as a check upon our national defense? Liberalism is the answer.

H

ROCKETJOCK

Tuesday, July 4, 2006 6:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

To be fair I don't really know if she's liberal. My evidence is suspect. First of all its a female federal judge in California who hyphens her name.

Yeah, that's pure logic. God knows no conservative ever had a hyphenated last name. And there are no female conservatives on the bench anywhere in America. Heavens, only crazy suffragettes would want women judges.

And no conservative ever made a legal decision that disagreed with conservative pravda just because it was right or legal.

"This judge made a decision that I, as a conservative, don't agree with. Therefore, she must be a liberal!"

To your credit, Hero, you admit your evidence is suspect--in the middle of your post, long after your thread title smears all liberals as being against American defense. Old yellow journalism tactic; smear on page one, retraction on page forty-seven.

Bye the bye, before someone smears me as a liberal, I'm neither liberal nor conservative. I'm a member of the radical middle, e.g. Libertarian.

"You can't enslave a free man. The most you can do is kill him." -- Robert A. Heinlein

OLDENGLANDDRY

Tuesday, July 4, 2006 9:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

That she's Canadian boggles the mind, how does a Canadian become an American judge and how can someone who's not an American act as a check upon our national defense? Liberalism is the answer.

H

Since when did someone who is'nt British have the right to dictate the foriegn policy of The United Kingdom?
Yet G.W.B. does it continously.

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 NEXT PAGE