Firefly Contributing To The End Of Buffy?

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UPDATED: Monday, June 3, 2002 21:26
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ZICSOFT

Sunday, June 2, 2002 1:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shoe:
Its too bad an actually good series may be sacrificed for a show that will tank.

How's the rash? I know it's in an embaressing place, but these things happen.

NOVAGRASS

Sunday, June 2, 2002 2:14 AM

Beware, there are season 6 spoilers in here!

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Quote:
The entire series has always been about growth... *always.* From day one, the series was about a woman and her friends' growth into adulthood, changing and maturing through the years.
True enough. But when people grow and change, they start doing different things with their lives, don't they? They even become different people.

Hmm, now that I think about it, you've put your finger on the one big thing that I really disliked about season 6: no growth. In fact, the three main character rather regressed!

Buffy: she's rebellious and wilful, which was the basis of the tension between her and Giles. But they need to write out Giles, so all of sudden he has too leave because she's "over-dependent".

Willow: they go to all this trouble developing her as a geeky girl with hidden mystical powers. Which was a lot of fun to watch. But they need her to have a breakup with Tara (and I'm guessing they also need for her to lose her powers for season 7), so they decide she's a "magic addict". Hey, 12-step programs for witches! Now that's original!

Xander: the most disappointing of all. My favorite episode is "The Zeppo," which typifies this character's struggle to invent imself. He's come to terms with his weaknesses and built on his strengths. He's counquered his fears and shown his own kind of courage. But they needed him to break up with Anya, so all of a sudden he's afraid of the future. Oh well.

The way I see it, these elements have been developing since season 5, if not before that... let me explain...

Willow's Magic Addiction: There is one scene in season 2 when Willow completes her magical incantation to restore Angel's soul. She gets very juiced when the spell succeeds, and Xander starts to look very worried. He realizes at this point that the magic will change Willow from the girl he grew up with into something entirly different. In season 5, in the episode entitled Listening to Fear, Tara comments on Willow's over-use of magic... saying that they shouldn't do things they could do easily within non-magical convention. There is also, in season 2, the development of magic as an addictive thing, with the explication of Giles' past and his dableings in dark magic. So Willow's story for season 6 isn't sudden at all... it's been growing since season 2. Also, part of Willow's most interesting character growth is her growth out of the geeky high school girl. Magic played a big part of this, and by season 4, she was a mature young woman who had outgrown the geekiness... but was still haunted by it (see Restless, another episode that foreshadows Willow's feelings of insignificance, which is a big reason for her magic troubles.) So, they did not develop her into a geeky girl who has hidden magical powers... they developed her as a girl who outgrows the geeky side of her, with the help of magic, friends, and Tara, but still feels insignificant in the world... like a geeky high school girl.

Xander: I can agree that I didn't enjoy the character this season... but I believe that was the entire point of his story arc. A lot of Xander's character has been centered on a feeling of unimportance... being the only normal guy in the group... which was resolved by season 6's conclusion. Another big part of his character is his immaturity. He is, and always has been, rather immature. His decision to propose to Anya was very rash and sudden... a very immature move, because he knew he was never ready to marry Anya in the first place. His leaving Anya at the alter was the culmination of his immaturity and his not being prepared for such commitment. This was all addressed in Once More With Feeling pretty glaringly. And you know what... Xander *did* grow this season... he saved the world for Christ's sake... he was willing to give up his life because he didn't want to live in a world without Willow. That's some serious growth, right there.

Buffy: Come on! She just came back from the dead... r

SHAMUS

Sunday, June 2, 2002 2:41 AM

Just so Dylan doesn't feel so lonely...

I actively enjoyed S6. All the characters evolved/devolved organically. The writers moved the story in directions that were unlike anything else on TV.

The one complaint I might have is that the display of Willow's addiction may have been a little more like "text" than subtext. Rack -- although a cool character -- being used to draw a thick black line under the "Dealer" analogue was a little heavy-handed.

Anyway. It seems to me all the folks that are having problems with the various S6 issues are still engaged -- passionately -- with the show.

Tough to see how that could be a bad thing.

Nothings exceeds like excess.

SHUGGIE

Sunday, June 2, 2002 2:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
My big worry about Firefly is that they won't be up to the all the plotting. A lot more important in SF than in Fantasy. I mean, there were plot holes in the Glory arc you could drive a truck through -- but Glory was such an appealing villain, you just had to let it slide. Won't work in SF, which is *about* details like that.

Actually I don't believe SF is about the details - but I'm aware that I may be in a minority there.

Maybe that's why I don't watch as much SF as I did when I was 15. Or maybe that's why I avoid those threads on the Buffy NGs that endlessly discuss, or worse try to reconcile, all the plot holes and inconsistencies.

I mean I understand the need for everything to hang together well but it's not so important to me as good characters and interesting stories.

Fiction is always about suspending disbelief. The trick is to make it so interesting and entertaining that we ignore the inconsistencies in the same way we ignore the fact that vampires aren't real or we don't have hundreds of populated planets (yet).

I'm not worried because I know Joss is committed to the Story above all things. make the story good and everything else is secondary. Make the story amazing and people will forgive you almost any logical flaw, inconsistency, plot problem.

Do we hate that a Gypsy Curse with a 'perfect happiness' clause is a really really bad idea, or do we love the fact that it allows us to have Angel turn into Angellus half way through S2?

I know which I choose. Your choice may be different.

Shug

Her lips were saying 'No' but then I looked into her eyes
... and her eyes were saying 'read my lips'
- Niles Crane

NOVAGRASS

Sunday, June 2, 2002 3:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by shamus:
Just so Dylan doesn't feel so lonely...

I actively enjoyed S6. All the characters evolved/devolved organically. The writers moved the story in directions that were unlike anything else on TV.

The one complaint I might have is that the display of Willow's addiction may have been a little more like "text" than subtext. Rack -- although a cool character -- being used to draw a thick black line under the "Dealer" analogue was a little heavy-handed.

Anyway. It seems to me all the folks that are having problems with the various S6 issues are still engaged -- passionately -- with the show.

Tough to see how that could be a bad thing.

Nothings exceeds like excess.

You're so very very kind, Shamus

I think that because it was different than anything on TV is the main reason why so many people were unsatisfied with it... a lot of viewers didn't really get it.

About the Rack thing... I *totally* agree. I think the drug subtext would have really worked if they hadn't been so obvious with it. It was a thin line that could have been *great* if it were on one side or awful if it were on the other. I won't comment on which side I thought it was... but I be you can guess

Quote:
Anyway. It seems to me all the folks that are having problems with the various S6 issues are still engaged -- passionately -- with the show.

Well... except maybe for the Willow/Tara fans... geez... and we think the Dark Angelers are disgruntled! "Hell hath no fury... like a Willow/Tara fan scorned"

--Dylan Palmer, aka NoVaGrAsS--

"Blood just kept pouring out of them, you'd slip in it half the time, find out bloodbath is not just a figure of speech."
-Zoe; Firefly, "Serenity" Shooting Script.

JONWES

Sunday, June 2, 2002 4:23 AM

As I've said before, I've only become a big Buffy fan since season 6, although I always enjoyed the show when I happened to catch it before now.

Spoiler stuff:

Select to view spoiler:

I'll really miss the Tara/Willow relationship. I was a big fan, and now it's done forever. I'll really miss Amber Benson. However...

I also know one of the first things you need to know about dramatic writing is that if you love your characters, you'll hurt them. They need to be kicked in the butt every once in a while. And the Buffy team is great at doing that. I though the magic addiction thing, while it was a bit heavy-handed sometimes, was a clever plot. It wasn't something you'd see on Dawson's, so it was uniquely Buffy-like. What a great and interesting way to create tension between Willow and Tara in their relationship.

NOVAGRASS

Sunday, June 2, 2002 4:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonwes:
As I've said before, I've only become a big Buffy fan since season 6, although I always enjoyed the show when I happened to catch it before now.

Spoiler stuff:
Select to view spoiler:

I'll really miss the Tara/Willow relationship. I was a big fan, and now it's done forever. I'll really miss Amber Benson. However...

I also know one of the first things you need to know about dramatic writing is that if you love your characters, you'll hurt them. They need to be kicked in the butt every once in a while. And the Buffy team is great at doing that. I though the magic addiction thing, while it was a bit heavy-handed sometimes, was a clever plot. It wasn't something you'd see on Dawson's, so it was uniquely Buffy-like. What a great and interesting way to create tension between Willow and Tara in their relationship.

Select to view spoiler:

I miss Willow/Tara a lot. It was the only gay relationship on network television that was treated with any sort of integrity... and it is the only televised lesbian relationship that wasn't exploited purely for shock value and trendiness. It's sad to see it go, but it was a necessary development.

It's true, though... if every character leads a happy, perfect life, it's simply not interesting.

Select to view spoiler:

Joss has been saying that Tara's death made him physically ill to think about... which is why he knew it was the right thing to do.

The characters need to be given many trials and tribulations in order for them to grow and evolve. Without pain, the characters stagnate and the show dies. It's a sad fact, but it is a fact nonetheless.

--Dylan Palmer, aka NoVaGrAsS--

"Blood just kept pouring out of them, you'd slip in it half the time, find out bloodbath is not just a figure of speech."
-Zoe; Firefly, "Serenity" Shooting Script.

SHURIKAN

Sunday, June 2, 2002 3:24 PM

The whole Willow addicted to Magic thing was a great idea, IF you replace "magic" with "Power". If you think about it, she was a little highschool "nerdy" girl, with low self esteem etc, and then she could affect demons, save the world, and even make poeple forget what she didn't want them to rememer. It was Power that she was addicted to, not magic. That's what thought all the subtext was leading up to, and on a recap, it would've been so great. I always thought it was a bit of a copout, that it wasn't WILLOW who was bad, it was the Magic that made her do it. Ah well... woulda coulda shoulda, it's been done now
.

Shuri

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam

JONWES

Sunday, June 2, 2002 5:38 PM

Select to view spoiler:

But actually, it was the power, not the magic that made her go bad. That was shown in finale. It wasn't so much the fact that she had accessed dark magics, but it was also a power trip for her. She liked having the power - she challenged Buffy's power and seemed to revel in the fact that she could take Buffy on. She had a near orgasmic power overload. I think it was all intertwined.

ZICSOFT

Sunday, June 2, 2002 5:45 PM

Quote:
I mean I understand the need for everything to hang together well but it's not so important to me as good characters and interesting stories.

Then why bother with SF at all? If all you want is good people and stories, you can get that from any decent TV show.

Actually, I don't think you're in the minority. Judging from the "science fiction" I see, most fans like big fat stories that let them escape from the real world for a few hours, and aren't interested in reading critically. The buy books and watch shows that are full of "technical" details that don't actually make any sense.

That's the main reason I was so encouraged when I heard that Josh Whedon was doing a space opera. It's true that he basically writes fantasy, but he doesn't just make it up as he goes along -- he works hard to maintain the internal logic. (Though he doesn't always suceeed.) And when he does bring in science or technology, he avoids faking it. None of the jargon-spouting pseudo-science that drove me away from Star Trek.

Still, Whedon has a slight tendency to invent complicated backstories that get slightly out of control. There were minor inconsistencies in the Mayor Wilkins arc, and big ones in the Glory arc. I overlooked these problems because there was so much else to like. But that's gonna be harder to do with something Firefly.

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