Bush to send troops to border
POSTED BY: rklenseth
UPDATED: Friday, May 19, 2006 00:56
VIEWED: 8734
PAGE 3 of 8
Quote:
"If you want to get the job done, give the professionals in the Border Patrol the money and resources they need to do the job, don't turn guarding the border over to a bunch of unprepared, untrained, part time soldiers, many of whom won't want the job."
I couldn't disagree more.
Quote:
"On the other hand there are 10,000 Guard troops ready to go now"
It would take at least a year and probably three to get the Border Patrol in the shape it needs to be in, assuming funding was available right now. (And it's not.) So your solution to simply give the Border Patrol money and resources isn't a good one by itself. The Border Patrol DOES need money and resources, but the gap between now and later needs to be filled with something. That something is our National Guard: created specifically to Guard our Nation.
As for the National Guard being unprepared and untrained for this, I disagree with that, too. Securing a perimiter is one of those things the military teaches its people fairly early on.
Oh, and then this:
"There isn't an uglier, hotter region in the US"
I've been around the Arizona desert, and I find it quite beautiful. But even if you think it's ugly, I can promise you that our National Guard has unfortunately become accustomed to spending lots of time in foreign hot deserts. Their training and deployments have frequently been in foreign hot deserts. I think you can safely say that foreign hot deserts has been the primary focus of the military since the first Gulf War. I do believe that spending time in Native hot deserts is going to be preferable. I think the average National Guardsman would rather spend time in our hot deserts than their hot deserts.
Finally, there's this:
"The answer is yes, it is possible, but not in this case."
I'm not xenophobic and I'm not racist. I'm not even politist. I don't hate Democrats or Republicans. Been registered Independent since graduating from High School. My parents are Cuban. From Cuba. My grandparents brought them over when Batista was in power, and they went through hoops to become residents and then citizens. My dad was sworn in as a citizen the day Kennedy was assasinated. He thought the announcement at the swearing-in ceremony was a loyalty test.
But you know what? Immigration does need to be controlled. And the borders need to be watched. Starting right away. I don't know that Bush or the current party is filled with racists. I don't know what is in the hearts or minds of these men. I do know that finally, at long last, something is being done about an old problem. Are they doing it for political reasons? Yeah? Good. That's what our vote is supposed to do. It's supposed to put pressure on the leadership to do the things we want. So now they are addressing an old problem.
That makes me glad.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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It would take less than a year to get the necessary BP agents into place. There is no crisis facing the nation that requires the deployment of a large number of Guard troops immediately. Our border with Mexico isn't unguarded in the first place, lots of people are detained and sent back after trying to cross. More BP agents would be good, but the idea of sending 10,000 troops to the border as if we're facing some kind of a crisis is absurd. These immigrants aren't trying to invade the nation, they're looking for work and a better life. Frankly the illegal immigrants contribute greatly to the economies of the border states by taking jobs for lower than legal pay that US citizens aren't taking. If you've eaten in a restaurant in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, or California, you have had food cooked for you by illegal immigrants, and your table was bussed and cleaned by an illegal immigrant at some point. Landscaping services, construction companies, agricultural companies, clothing manufacturers and many other types of companies rely on labor from illegal immigrants, which is why corporate America opposes punitive measures for dealing with illegal immigrants. when politicians attempt to solve complex problems like this during an election year the result is usually negative. There is time to deal with this problem appropriately, no need for grandstanding like this pr stunt by Bush. I noticed that you disagree with having the professional BP handle the problem. I can then assume that you want non-professionals to do the job. Brilliant.
You say you've been to the Arizona desert and you liked it. Exactly where did you travel in Arizona? I've been all over the state and I can tell you that there is a huge difference between the area around the border with Mexico and the touristy areas to the North. There is no infrastructure along or close to the border, and the area is very hot and very unpleasant most of the year. Guard troops do train in desert climates, but not for long periods of time and they don't train for immigration control at all because that isn't what the Guard is for. The National Guard exists to defend against INVASION of our borders and for helping out in areas hit by natural disaster, not for handling immigration problems. They are also not generally used for long term deployment since Guardsmen have regular lives. This explains why enlistment in the Guard has been down recently. As far as whether Guardsmen would prefer being in our deserts or in Iraq, I don't want them in either desert. It's also an asinine comparison since troops won't be called back from Iraq to serve on the Mexico border. The ones sent to patrol the border won't have experience in Iraq, so they will have at most a few weekends of training for desert combat, which has nothing to do with trolling for illegals crossing over.
Please don't compare/confuse Cubans coming over to the US in the 50's and 60's to Mexicans coming over now. The circumstances are completely different today. I will say that you and your family are lucky that the racist wing of the Republican party wasn't in control of the nation at that time because if they had been deciding immigration issues then, you and your family would not be living in the US now. It's always heartwarming to see descendants of recent immigrants complaining about current immigrants though. Makes the old heartstrings tingle.
One more thing, and I say this to all of the proud, fearsome, armchair warriors who are "supporting" the war in Iraq. SIGN UP! If you feel so strongly and your patriotic fervor has been aroused, then volunteer for duty on the border! You'll love it down there, the 100 degree heat (in the shade), the tent you'll sleep in (no motels on the border), the crap you'll eat (no fancy eatin places on the border either), and of course the insects, dehydration, and near constant boredom. I'm certain you're of prime age for enlistment, so go on, don't just talk about it, put your body where your mouth is and enlist in your National Guard and ask to be sent to guard the US-Mexico border.
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Quote:
"It would take less than a year to get the necessary BP agents into place."
I sincerely doubt the ability to find, hire, train, and place 10k border patrol agents in less than a year. But maybe their training isn't that extensive, after all? I wouldn't know. I assumed they were trained along the same lines as police officers.
Quote:
"There is no crisis facing the nation that requires the deployment of a large number of Guard troops immediately."
So finally, at long last, someone is doing something about a problem which has existed for years. Your response? "What's your hurry?" Brilliant.
Quote:
Our border with Mexico isn't unguarded in the first place, lots of people are detained and sent back after trying to cross. More BP agents would be good, but the idea of sending 10,000 troops to the border as if we're facing some kind of a crisis is absurd."
No, it's great. Because the President will send his National Guard troops to the border. And the border will be more secure. But people like you will complain about those troops. And Bush will say, "Well, we could move the troops, but then we'll be leaving the country unguarded." And then congress, the same congress that refused funding before, will be forced to fund new border patrol agents so that they aren't responsible for leaving the border unguarded. Then the National Guard troops will be withdrawn after the Border Patrol are in place. And that will take 1-3 years. After which, presto, we have a sufficient Border Patrol. This is EXACTLY what we need.
Quote:
"These immigrants aren't trying to invade the nation, they're looking for work and a better life. Frankly the illegal immigrants contribute greatly to the economies of the border states by taking jobs for lower than legal pay that US citizens aren't taking. If you've eaten in a restaurant in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, or California, you have had food cooked for you by illegal immigrants, and your table was bussed and cleaned by an illegal immigrant at some point. Landscaping services, construction companies, agricultural companies, clothing manufacturers and many other types of companies rely on labor from illegal immigrants."
Now this sounds an awful lot like an argument for why we need illegal immigrants, and how the entire country couldn't operate without them. It sounds like you strongly advocate a class of working sub-poor who have no benefits and no rights. It also sounds like you believe that Americans in Butternut, Wisconsin have a real crisis of finding enough people to do their Landscaping, Construction, Farming, Waitressing, Cooking, and Toilet Cleaning. I've been to Wisconsin. I even went to Cuba, Wisconsin (which was a hoot, I tell you. Every street has a sign with a silhouette of the president it's named after.) You know what's shocking? Most of the people doing these jobs in that state are American Citizens. Amazingly willing to do the work for legal pay, because there was a shortage of people doing it for illegal pay. And the local economy didn't shatter.
Quote:
There is time to deal with this problem appropriately, no need for grandstanding like this pr stunt by Bush. I noticed that you disagree with having the professional BP handle the problem. I can then assume that you want non-professionals to do the job. Brilliant.
Perhaps you missed the part where I thought it would be good to increase funding, supply, and manpower to the Border Patrol. In case you did, I'll say it again. Make the Border Patrol effective. In the meantime, plug the leak. It's not complicated. You don't wait to get the ship into drydock before you address the hole in the hull.
Quote:
You say you've been to the Arizona desert and you liked it. Exactly where did you travel in Arizona? I've been all over the state and I can tell you that there is a huge difference between the area around the border with Mexico and the touristy areas to the North.
My favorite places have been the open deser
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"Since my family and I know from whence we speak, you ought to be paying attention."
'Splain please Anthony - cause this sounds a lot like BECAUSE I SAID SO!
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Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
"Since my family and I know from whence we speak, you ought to be paying attention."
'Splain please Anthony - cause this sounds a lot like BECAUSE I SAID SO!
He implied that it was horrible to hear immigrants and the children of immigrants (me) speak against illegal immigration.
That's a, "Shame on you."
I explained, quite correctly I think, that a family which went through the long and difficult process of LEGAL immigration might have the right perspective.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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The illegal immigration problem will never be solved as long as we have what is in effect a 3rd world country on our doorstep.
And as a second generation American. I have no problem with people doing what they need to do to survive.
These people are working- HARD and many of them are paying taxes and they are contributing to the cultural and economic growth of this country.
So instead of arming the borders and invading countries that neither want or need our help - we should be extending our hand an our resources to helping Mexico grow its own economy and standard of living. Because when that happens - we all win.
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Quote:
"So instead of arming the borders and invading countries that neither want or need our help - we should be extending our hand an our resources to helping Mexico grow its own economy and standard of living. Because when that happens - we all win."
Well, I am in agreement that we need to stop 'liberating' countries.
However, I do not think we should be lending resources to Mexico. In fact, I think we should leave Mexico alone. I think we should leave Africa alone, too. I think most 3rd world or developing nations would benefit from a healthy dose of being left alone.
Here's an interesting tidbit:
"Kenyan economist James Shikwati of the Inter Region Economic Network ( www.irenkenya.org), interviewed by the German magazine Der Spiegel just before July’s G8 conference, sent this urgent plea to the west regarding foreign aid: “For God’s sake, please just stop.”
Shikwati believes that development aid has been one of Africa’s main problems. The vast army of apparatchiks in charge of aid agencies such as the UN’s World Food Program have a vested interest in never achieving their goals. If hunger were eliminated in Africa, their jobs would evaporate too. One German aid worker admitted to Der Spiegel, “When I started this job I was brimming with idealism. But after I had saved enough money within a few years to buy a house, the relationship I had to my job changed.”
Meanwhile, Shikwati says that if the west stopped sending aid, “…normal Africans wouldn’t even notice. Only the functionaries would be hit hard, which is why they maintain that the world would stop turning without this development aid.”
When food gets sent from Europe or America, Shikwati says, “local farmers might as well put down their hoes right away. No one can compete with the UN’s World Food Program.” Local agriculture is thus destroyed, and more food aid is needed again the following year.
The same thing happens when container loads of donated used clothing arrive. Local tailors and seamstresses can no longer find customers. As low as wages are in Africa, no-one can be cost-efficient enough to compete with goods that are available for free.
For at least 40 years, the west has poured aid into Africa. The current flow is about $26 billion per year. In some countries, aid has constituted 80 to 95 percent of their GNP. Yet the countries that have received the most remain among the poorest.
The crying shame is that it doesn’t need to be this way. The economic principles that govern wealth creation are well established and simple to understand. People can claw their way out of the most desperate poverty if they are given the freedom to work and to keep what they earn. History has demonstrated this over and over again.
Natural resources and wide open spaces are not pre-requisites (although Africa is not lacking in either). Resource-starved, population-dense Hong Kong rose rapidly to prosperity when its laws allowed people to start businesses without hindrance, accumulate capital without confiscatory taxation and make contracts free of stifling regulation. Sound money, the rule of law, and free trade (not “fair” trade) all play a role.
The one thing the west could usefully export to Africa is knowledge—knowledge of how to structure a nation’s laws to secure freedom and prosperity for its people. Alas, among those in the west who make African aid their avocation, this knowledge appears to be a commodity that is sorely lacking."
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Development aid is not the problem in Africa.
No roads, corruption, civil war are the problem in Africa. You can not continue to feed a country or a continent and not give them the infrastructure, the technology, the tools to feed themselves.
Not help our neighbors? So if the guy next door is beating his wife and children - do you look away or get involved?
If the child down the street eats sugar sandwiches for all meals and has no shoes in the rain - do you ignore it or do you buy her some shoes and groceries?
We no longer live in a country that is far removed from all the others. These are our neighbors and whether you like it or not, what happens there (any of the "there's) affects us.
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"We no longer live in a country that is far removed from all the others. These are our neighbors and whether you like it or not, what happens there (any of the "there's) affects us."
Of course what happens to our neighbors affects us. I just think that we historically do more harm than good when we try to help our neighbors. Our help isn't typically very helpful. Most of our 'aid' comes in the form of 'feed the man, don't teach him to fish.' Or, 'Lend the man some money he can't pay back.'
But you seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth.
"instead of arming the borders and invading countries that neither want or need our help -"
You asked if my neighbor was beating his wife and kids, would I interfere? Yes, I would. But I probably wouldn't go to Scottsdale to stop a guy there from beating his wife and kids. Unless, you know, I was some kind of police official with jurisdiction there. I probably wouldn't do something like invade a country because I didn't like the way their citizens were being treated. Not because I don't care, but rather because history has shown me that doesn't work out very well.
What about you? On the one hand you say that we need to stop invading countries, and on the other hand we need to stop our neighbors from mistreating their people. I'm a bit confused by this stance.
You asked if I saw the kid down the street eating sugar sandwiches, would I interfere? Maybe. I might invite the family over (if he has one) to dinner and recommend to the parents that they buy something other than sugar sandwiches as food. I might recommend places they can apply for a better job, if that's the problem. If the kid has no family, I'd be sure the government snatched him up. If that wasn't an option, I'd recommend that he get a paper route, and see if anyone wanted to adopt a son.
But what are you advocating? Should we send food and money to Mexico? To Africa? Is that helping? For how long?
Maybe you think we should build roads in Africa, so they can move goods about. Sounds like it could be helpful. Who will maintain the roads? Who will guard the roads to ensure that free travel is allowed on the roads? Maybe we should tell them that they need roads, but I think they already know that. Maybe we could tell them how to build roads. I'm pretty sure they already know how.
Maybe we should tell them how to farm? That's not a bad idea. But we better be sure we don't send them free food. Maybe we can tell them how to make clothes? That's okay, as long as we don't send them any clothes. Should we tell them how democracy works? Sure. But we can't make them listen.
Maybe to make sure they use our aid thoughtfully, we should take over the country. Or maybe we should install a puppet government that we know will rule the country well. *cough, gag*
Maybe we should simply import all these people to our country and make them Americans. We could send boats and planes to pick them up and bring them over. Anyone who wants to come. But what, then, will happen to OUR country? Can we absorb them all?
In the end, There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. We need to leave people alone. It's the best help we can give them. Free Lunch is ruining a lot of lives. Free Lunch costs too much.
Revolution and Self-directed Change take a long time and cost a lot of lives. But it's still cheaper than Free Lunch.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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(a) um speaking from the front of my mouth - (b) One does not have to invade ones neighbors house to stop the beating, and we don't have to invade other countries either.
Holy Crap! I just saw this next little gem!
"You asked if I saw the kid down the street eating sugar sandwiches, would I interfere? Maybe. I might invite the family over (if he has one) to dinner and recommend to the parents that they buy something other than sugar sandwiches as food. I might recommend places they can apply for a better job, if that's the problem. If the kid has no family, I'd be sure the government snatched him up. If that wasn't an option, I'd recommend that he get a paper route, and see if anyone wanted to adopt a son."
WTF? What country no what PLANET do you live on? Do you honestly think that the issue of poverty in this country or any other would be solved by a dinner at your house and a suggestion of where they might get another job? You recommend a paper route?
OK, I can no longer have this discussion with you, because your realm of existence is wholly and completely in LALA land.
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